Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

You have 10 seconds, please.

[Noura Aljizawi]

I would say that I cannot speak for victims, although I've talked to many of them. However, we can start by creating a governmental institution that would coordinate across all government institutions, including law enforcement, and can communicate with victims.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

Now I invite Ms. Damoff to take the floor for five minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today.

Following on my colleagues' questions, I have a question for both of you.

One of the things that's been challenging with this study is that we're looking at transnational repression in developing countries, and we tend to wander into what Canada can do here.

What kind of coordination can we do between like-minded countries? I was thinking about what we heard in the previous panel from the young lady who's living in the United States. How can we coordinate between like-minded countries to deal with this issue?

I'd like to hear from both of you on that, if I could.

[Sarah Teich]

I can start.

I realized that in my response to MP Majumdar I said I was going to give two examples and then I actually only gave one. The second example I had thought of at the outset was related to Bill C-353, which I realize is not before this committee. It's before another committee this week, but—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm going to stop you there. That has to do with Canadian nationals who are being held arbitrarily. We're dealing with transnational repression in other countries, so not necessarily.... Bill C-353 wouldn't really apply here.

I'm thinking more that there's a lot of coordination between countries, even things like the ICJ and the ICC. Are there opportunities for international coordination on dealing with transnational repression?

[Sarah Teich]

That's an interesting question.

I was only going to give that bill as an example, actually. Let's take away the substance of the bill for a moment. One thing about that bill that's been interesting is that it's been referenced in the Australian senate as well, and it's looked at in other countries. That is just an example that legislation can be passed and policies can be implemented across all of the like-minded countries to create a more consistent global response. Whether that's a specific bill or any other policy, I was just pointing to a framework there.

In terms of the international courts, depending on the form that transnational repression takes, it's possible it could constitute, I suppose, a crime against humanity or some other violation of a treaty that could enable recourse to the International Court of Justice, but it wouldn't specifically fall under those courts. However, perhaps some sort of international tribunal, maybe among the like-minded countries, is an idea.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Does our other witness want to add to that?

[Noura Aljizawi]

Yes. Thank you.

Absolutely, we need this international coordination. Maybe we can dream of starting across democracies. We know that the G7 created the rapid response mechanism, which is still in the very early stages. It should be subjected to many criticisms, including that it has not come yet with a mutual definition of transnational repression and digital transnational repression.

The other area that really needs work starts with the definition as well as the recognition of both phenomena as human rights violations. It's not only the threat to the national security of the country; it's also a human rights violation. That gives it more importance to be addressed by these means, because it involves further and upper levels of the work, including the involvement of different government institutions up top to the diplomacy and, for sure, the foreign affairs.

We really need to do this work. As well, we need coordinated responses in terms of responding to digital threats.

For instance, the United States did some good work. The Biden administration listed some of the companies whose technology has been used in human rights violations in sanctions, whereas Canada has not done this yet. The Biden administration also has been working across different departments, which could be drawn as a possible road map for Canada and other democracies across the G7 to build on. It is absolutely not enough, because more work must be done by opening the space for its definition and recognition as a human rights violation and for exchanging lessons learned.

On top of or aside from that, maybe there could be some exchange of information in relation to the accountability and the capture and arrest of perpetrators, the same way that dictators exchange information about dissidents and coordinate the arrest, kidnapping and abduction of them back home.

I can give an example from the Nordic states. When they came together, they coordinated police responses when the Iranian mercenaries tried to assassinate the Ahwazi activists on the bridge between Denmark and Sweden. The Nordic states came together and coordinated their efforts and exchanged information. They also revoked the diplomatic immunity of the Iranian diplomats and held them accountable. Such measures could be preventive measures.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

I invite Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe to take the floor for five minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome the two witnesses and thank them for being with us today.

I would perhaps like to address somewhat more specific cases. For some, transnational repression is simply defined as a foreign state attacking its own nationals in another territory. However, I'm going to talk about a case that was in the newspapers recently here in Canada. It's the case of Irwin Cotler, who was targeted by a foreign state, even though he isn't a national of that foreign state.

Do you see this as a form of transnational repression?

What consequences could this famous transnational repression have on Canadian citizens, or citizens of other countries if similar cases were to occur there too?

I'll ask Ms. Teich to answer my question first. Then it will be Ms. Aljizawi's turn.

[Sarah Teich]

Thank you. That's a great question.

First of all, I would certainly categorize that as transnational repression because it is, as you said, foreign state operatives reaching beyond their borders to target individuals. We do see the greatest impacts of transnational repression on diaspora community members, but that's not to say that other people are immune to these types of attacks. This is a perfect example of that.

When it comes to the Irwin Cotler case in particular, it strikes me that this is another example of how, when autocrats reach beyond their borders into Canada, perhaps they're less likely to be successful when it comes to kidnapping, illegal rendition and murder. It's not to say it doesn't happen in Canada, but this is where the transnational repression in developing democracies is a gap and is important to look at as well. If Mr. Cotler had been in another country where there was less effective law enforcement, who knows what could have happened?

I think this is a perfect illustration of that point and the importance of this topic.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Would you like to add anything, Ms. Aljizawi?

[Noura Aljizawi]

I believe the researchers have been in debates, but none would agree that it's not a severe human rights violation committed by an authoritarian state against someone who's been a prominent defender of and fighter for justice in that country. I think it's a very tragic story, but also it's an alarm to everyone that it's not only a matter of a certain group of people. It's not only the refugees who come here to continue their activism. Maybe some groups in the country or in the government would say it's their own business. It's everybody's business because once it starts, it will never stop.

I believe if Canada had taken serious actions a couple of years ago to respond and had taken preventive measures, we wouldn't be discussing now the assassination attempt of our former justice minister.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much for that.

Ms. Teich, I'd like to hear your comments on something a little more concrete for the subcommittee.

You worked on the Uyghur file. I had the opportunity to work on that file with you. Could you explain in more detail to the subcommittee what transnational repression means for the Uyghur nation?

[Sarah Teich]

I do think this community actually provides an illustration of the intersection of transnational repression on Canadian soil and in developing democracies because we see with the Uyghur community that this is a community that is repressed—almost every single one of them—when they come here.

Uyghur Rights Advocacy Project put out a report to that effect. They found that every single person they interviewed basically was subjected to some form of transnational repression by the Chinese state. One form of this repression is threats to loved ones overseas. That's in addition to the surveillance in Canada, the intimidation in Canada and so on.

These are two prongs that mutually support each other, if you will, in terms of an overall picture of repression of this community. The goal is, of course, to prevent Uyghurs from speaking out about the human rights violations and the genocide that's happening in China and to carry out this genocide beyond its borders. It's a critically important topic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

I invite Mr. Johns to take the floor for five minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you. I'm going to follow up on Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe's comments from earlier.

It was just last week that we were supposed to hear from former minister of justice Irwin Cotler—on the same day that news broke about the RCMP foiling an assassination plot against him by agents of Iran. This disturbing news really demonstrates that authoritarian governments are using repressive tactics, not just on their own citizens at home and abroad but on citizens of other countries who do human rights work.

Ms. Teich, what do you think the international community can do to condemn and counteract such actions that threaten progress on advancing human rights globally?

[Sarah Teich]

Thanks. It's a big question.

There's a lot that the international community and Canada can do about this. I would direct the committee members—I'm not sure if you're allowed to look at external sources—to the Human Rights Coalition's closing submissions before the recent federal foreign interference commission. It contained a number of recommendations, as did our report that we co-published with Secure Canada.

I'll skip the three ideas I mentioned in my opening remarks. Some other ideas would be to criminalize refugee espionage, create a civil cause of action and provide increased physical and psychological support for victims. A specialized victims of transnational repression fund is something we've been advocating for for a long time. This would very concretely help folks who have been hacked, for example, and need to buy a new computer or a new phone, and provide various sorts of concrete measures.

I could go on and on, but there are many things that we can do.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate those really important recommendations.

Ms. Aljizawi, Ms. Teich just talked about the digital platforms presenting an opportunity for states to exercise repressive tactics from afar. Governments are already playing catch-up in addressing the harms and abuses that can occur in the online sphere. Now with rapidly developing artificial intelligence, we know that just opens the door to new types of harm.

Can you comment on artificial intelligence in terms of the risk it poses to political dissidents of and human rights defenders against repressive governments? How can technology companies, democratic governments and the international community prevent the misuse of artificial intelligence and other digital tools by states trying to repress dissent?

[Noura Aljizawi]

That's such a great question. Thank you so much for asking it.

Absolutely, AI is a threat that looms over all vulnerable groups, including exiled dissidents. Women and sexual minorities, in particular, are really concerned. The people I talk to are really concerned about deepfakes and about the implementation and use of AI in running smear campaigns and disinformation campaigns against them.

I want to specify the importance of recognizing that platforms in Canada, for instance, don't share transparency reports with the government. Maybe this committee can take a lead on this. Request that these platforms share transparency reports on content moderation personnel, because most of these attacks are being carried out in foreign languages. As we've seen in the transparency reports that these platforms submitted to the EU, there aren't enough personnel to look at this harmful content on top of everything they are doing to automate the responses, which all of these algorithms were coded by. There's no real coordination and work with the targeted communities. There's no sense of accountability. There are no means for any target now coming under threat to report it immediately to the platform and request that it look immediately at the online content.

I spoke to a Chinese dissident who was subjected to a massive disinformation campaign across platforms, and the content is still there today. Some platforms responded to requests made by some politicians in her country of residence, whereas other platforms just kept it there. Other platforms, when she was reporting to them, time after time, were asking her to provide the evidence that it was a state-sponsored attack.

Even the forensic work the platform can do is being put on the shoulders of victims, which is very traumatizing. Take screenshots and compile all of this evidence and then send everything to us. Because there is a machine and generative AI looking at it and saying whether it's ChatGPT or other generative AI-empowered models, the AI is not convinced because it wasn't told the information in the way it was coded to handle it. It asks for more information, so it's been very traumatizing and very draining for the victims.

The other thing is that we all are aware of the risk of AI being used in spyware and in the carrying out of sophisticated—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you very much, Ms. Aljizawi.

Now I would like to invite Mr. Lake to take the floor for four minutes, please.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Aljizawi, one of the things that you talked about was the bad actors having each other's backs relative to other countries. I asked that question in the first panel that we had.

To either of you, do we know to what extent there's coordination among countries like China, Russia, Iran and North Korea, particularly as we're talking about developing democracies? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Then, I'll put a second question to you at the same time. I came to the international human rights subcommittee more through international development work. As I think about those developing democracies, it seems as though the conversation that we're having might be different. When we're thinking about Canada, the U.S. and other countries, these bad actors aren't looking, I don't think, for allies. They're looking probably to destabilize us more than anything else and to send messages to people back in their own countries through the actions that they take.

However, as I think about developing democracies, is there an aspect to which it's not so much destabilization as a goal, but maybe even winning over allies as they move forward? To what extent ought we be paying attention to that?

[Noura Aljizawi]

To answer your first question, there's absolutely a sense of coordination. In my work, I didn't document direct coordination in relation to transnational oppression among Iran, Russia, North Korea and China. However, I work with activists who were, for instance, visiting or trying to escape Saudi Arabia through the U.A.E. Then, the U.A.E. arrested them, abducted them and sent them back home.

For instance, the prominent woman rights defender, Loujain al-Hathloul, was targeted with spyware. That spyware helped the U.A.E. law enforcement to identify her geolocation. She was kidnapped, abducted and immediately sent to Saudi Arabia where she was imprisoned and subjected to torture and gender-based violence.

This is only one example. There are other examples for sure. There were so many cases, for instance, of Iranian citizens or exiled activists who travelled to Turkey, whether to visit family or because someone from their country of origin communicated that they should travel to Turkey and meet them there, only to find that there is a sense of facilitation in their kidnapping.

Many of them were kidnapped from Turkey and transferred to Iran. Then, they forcibly disappeared in Iran. We still have not heard from any of them yet, including the Ahwazi dissident whose case I referred to. He was abducted eventually from Turkey.... I'm sorry. He was lured to travel to Turkey to attend a conference there, and Iran kidnapped him from Turkey. These cases are just a few examples of the level of coordination among these governments.

To answer your second question, they absolutely not only care for the destabilization of democracy; they also care to build allies in the west. They care for their international image. There are tons of research about how they try to influence politicians in democracies through so many means, including conferences, lobbyists and international and very respected media outlets in these democracies, whereas what really disturbs them is a woman or any young activist coming here to Canada to testify and provide another narrative, telling the truth about the atrocities in these countries.

That would ruin every single effort and penny spent by these dictators to control their image beyond their borders. They would lose maybe the opportunities of creating allies in the west and they would become isolated. They might become sanctioned, and they might become recognized as personae non gratae. They might not be able to have diplomatic missions in Canada and in the west. Therefore, they won't be able to have business, and they won't be able to exchange development projects, etc. This is very important to them and having these exiled activists—