Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2024

[Nathaniel Raymond]

Yes.

Through you, Mr. Chair, Russia needs to provide Ukraine and the Red Cross with a list of the kids it took so that they can come home.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

Now we go to a period of questions and answers.

I would like to invite Mr. Mike Lake to take the floor for four minutes, please.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

I know our time is going to be pretty short here.

The question that I have, Nathaniel, for you, is to try to get a bit of an understanding of the adoptive parents, so to speak. To what extent do they know the full backgrounds, or the backgrounds at all, of the kids they are “adopting”?

[Nathaniel Raymond]

That is an excellent question, sir.

In the first group of children who were in a test program run by the Moscow region mayor, it is clear that the mayor of Moscow, working with Maria Lvova-Belova, selected previously involved foster parents for the kids, who had a clear understanding that these children were Ukrainian. We do not know, in the post-annexation period when the database program began, which was approximately October 2022, to what degree knowledge about the children's backgrounds was given to the “new parents”.

What we do know are the names of many of the parents. We have not published them to protect them from reprisals, but you're asking an excellent question. There are at least two phases to this program. The first is pre-annexation, and the second is post-annexation. It appears that the level of information provided changed between the two.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

The obvious question, with limited time in the conversation, is this: What can Canada do, right now, to help in this situation?

I think everybody around this table recognizes the terrifying, horrifying nature of what's being so articulately described today by our witnesses. What ought we to do immediately as first steps?

[Nathaniel Raymond]

I was at the Montreal ministerial meeting hosted by Global Affairs Canada, and I can say that I was quite impressed by Foreign Affairs Minister Joly and the leadership she took, particularly on the issue of data and data coordination. As I said at that meeting—and I think your government was right alongside me and agreed when I said it—there are really four coordination challenges for the international community, with Canada's leadership as a pivotal supporter of Ukraine and as a pivotal leader within the ministerial group. There are four challenges on data, and data is crucial. If we do not have the proper data, we will fail.

The four challenges are, one, a donor support group to ensure long-term, multi-year support so that Ukraine and folks like Iryna Suslova and her colleagues have the resources they need to do their jobs. That's step one.

Step two is a technical support group for Ukrainians on many of the complex identification requirements.

The third is the negotiation group, with Qatar and South Africa playing crucial roles with the Holy See. That group needs to grow. It needs to get stronger and more coordinated.

The fourth and final one is an information-sharing group where nations such as Estonia and those with expertise on digital issues can ensure security and legal compliance for sharing data among law enforcement, civil society and governments.

Those are the four challenges. Canada is already engaged, but that's where Canada needs to be.

I'll turn it back over to you.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Raymond.

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

Now I invite Mr. Ehsassi to take the floor for four minutes, please.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Raymond. Welcome back. Your testimony has always been incredibly helpful.

I understand that recently—and you alluded to this in your testimony—you suggested that a higher level of crime is involved. I have heard debates among various experts that the forcible deportation of children can fall into war crimes. It can fall into crimes against humanity, and it could also be deemed to be committing genocide.

What are your thoughts on how it is most properly classified?

Maybe Mr. Raymond fell off. Hopefully we'll have Mr. Raymond join us a bit later.

I will go to Ms. Suslova.

Thank you very much for your testimony.

We heard from previous witnesses about the relentless indoctrination that is happening to these children in the occupied territories. I was wondering if you would elaborate on that, because I take it that you're watching developments very closely. If you could provide us with more information, that would be very helpful.

[Iryna Suslova]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you for the question.

It is true that Russia, contrary to international humanitarian law, has changed the educational system and militarized it. They changed history textbooks, so now they say that Ukraine has never existed as an independent state.

The second aspect is that they are militarizing education and creating military camps. They are making military training part of the youth's education. They are teaching them how to use drones and military tactics. They are basically preparing these children and youth to eventually conscript them to use in the aggression.

We are getting a lot of requests from occupied territories about how to bring children back to Ukraine. We help them do that, especially when they are 16 and 17 years old. The Russian authorities are trying not to let them leave Russian-controlled territory, because they are getting them ready to be conscripted to the Russian army.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thanks so much.

I will go to you, Mr. Raymond.

Thank you for being back. Your testimony is always incredibly helpful.

With respect to the forced deportation of children, you are now suggesting that a higher level of crime is involved, having looked at the evidence.

I think we lost Mr. Raymond again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Yes, I'm sorry. He sent an email saying that he has another event, and he had to leave.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

He was on for a second and then was gone again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Yes, that's okay.

You have 25 seconds, Ali.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Ms. Suslova, if you could provide us with any testimony that demonstrates how brainwashing is taking place with some of these children, it would be much appreciated as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Give a quick answer, please.

[Iryna Suslova]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

They changed the curriculum. Children are receiving information from the school and the surroundings. Once the curriculum was changed, television and every social system was aimed to change their outlook of the world. They don't even need to deport them, as they did at the beginning of the aggression. They've integrated the Russian system on our occupied territories. One million and a half children are there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Ms. Suslova.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We learned today that Mr. Raymond's organization, the Yale School of Public Health Humanitarian Research Lab, released a report this morning. From what I understood, I would have liked to ask him about the names of the people responsible for these forced adoptions.

I can see now that Mr. Raymond has joined us.

[Nathaniel Raymond]

Yes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I know that communication must be challenging given your Internet network. If you give me the chance to ask you a question, that would be good.

Could you send the committee the report that you released this morning? I gather that the report contains evidence of forced adoptions of Ukrainian children by Mr. Putin's regime and that the people responsible are named in the report.

Is that right?

[Nathaniel Raymond]

I'm sorry. I'm just rejoining. I missed the original question and interpretation. My computers have been attacked since Sunday. This is my third computer.

Can you please repeat, sir?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Should I ask the question again?

[Nathaniel Raymond]

Yes, please.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

You informed us that your organization released a report showing and proving that Mr. Putin's regime was engaging in forced adoptions of Ukrainian children on Russian soil. I gather that you also have the names of the people responsible for this criminal operation.

Could you send the committee the evidence and the names of the people responsible? If possible, could you also send the committee the report that you released this morning?