Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Notwithstanding the UNRWA issues and that this institution of the United Nations has been supporting terrorism directly, you said you take direction from the Government of Canada, and I appreciate that. Usually you get a position from the Prime Minister, you get a position from the foreign minister and you get another position from the special adviser on Jewish community relations and anti-Semitism.

Which position is it that you reflect when you're voting against Israel at the United Nations?

[Bob Rae]

You should know me better, Mr. Majumdar; I'm not going to take any political bait that's thrown my way. My leadership and I take advice and I take my instructions from the Government of Canada. I can assure you that when those instructions are given to me, they're given to me on the basis of a joint position by the Government of Canada, and those are the positions I represent at the United Nations.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

I do have respect—

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. The purpose of the study today is migration. I'm noticing that my honourable colleague opposite is not asking questions about migration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Excuse me, Mr. Majumdar, but I believe strongly that this is off topic. Would you please come back to our topic regarding migration? Thank you.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

International agreements and discussions of the United Nations and UN agencies that deal with matters of migration are at the source of the topic here. The ambassador raised the issue of Gaza, so I'm picking up that thread a bit.

Let me go a bit further, Ambassador Rae. You mentioned your chairmanship of ECOSOC and looking at how other jurisdictions manage migration pressures and refugee pressures. How do you think Canada is doing in dealing with its own migration pressures?

[Bob Rae]

I think Canada at the present time has, and has had historically, a remarkable record of welcoming people. We've become the country we are because of immigration and because of migration. I think everyone knows that. I think our reputation in that regard is very strong.

I've had recent meetings with Amy Pope from the International Organization for Migration and with the head of the UNHCR, Filippo Grandi, just a couple of weeks ago, in fact. In both of those meetings, they stressed how refreshing it was to continue to engage with us on issues where there is a strong sense of mutual understanding and a strong sense of mutual respect. They were very aware of the way in which we've charted a course that they felt very strongly was supportive of the work they were trying to do. It represents an immense importance to the world.

For example—

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Respectfully, while I appreciate your view on that, I think a lot of people in Canada might disagree with how effective we've been at dealing with some of these pressures at home.

Let me ask you a final question, sir.

Our government has yet to pronounce on what's been happening in Venezuela, which has been the weaponization of refugees. Given your long history in dealing with these issues, what's your assessment of our government's view on how it's been handling the Maduro regime?

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Excuse me. The time is over. There will probably be another possibility to answer this question. You are very restricted. I have to be fair to the others in order to finish the panel.

[Bob Rae]

Will you let me answer the question or not? I'm happy to answer it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

I'll give you a few seconds. Answer quickly, please.

[Bob Rae]

I think the conduct of Venezuela has been disgraceful. They represent a threat to the stability of the region. For them to have created a refugee crisis when none of it needed to happen has been a total disgrace and has been severely disruptive to the economies of many of their neighbours.

I've actually had the opportunity to visit Darién Gap, which is the part of the border between Panama and Colombia where thousands of people—when I was there—were crossing the border every day. Many of them are from Venezuela and many of them have been displaced from Colombia and other places as a result of the Venezuela crisis.

I think the Maduro regime didn't win a fair election and should not be allowed to get away with it. We continue to look at ways in which we can bring pressure to bear on that regime to conduct elections that are fair and allow the voices of the people of Venezuela to be heard. They haven't been allowed to be heard for a long time and that's disgraceful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Rae. I'm sorry, but we have to go to another member.

I invite Mr. Ehsassi to have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ambassador, for joining us today. I'll try to keep my questions restricted to the topic at hand. It's good to have the opportunity to have timely discussions with you.

Mr. Ambassador, you rightly pointed out that the scale of migration patterns we're seeing around the world is unprecedented. There's no doubt that much more needs to be done.

You were very gracious. You did outline a number of different things that Canada is doing, given that we recognize the extent of the challenge.

In your opinion, is this something that needs to be dealt with at the national level by numerous different countries or is there some room to deal with it at the supranational level, where countries come together not only to pledge money to a wide variety of excellent organizations, most of them multilateral, but to devise policy changes at the supranational level as well?

[Bob Rae]

Mr. Ehsassi, we'll have to recognize a couple of things.

The first thing is that every government in the world is facing financial pressures. Those are affecting levels of support, whether for people displaced internally or for people forcibly migrating. We'll have to figure out a better way to provide services and get help to the people who really need it. We'll have to become more efficient. We'll have to become more effective. We'll have to become more innovative. We'll have to draw, as I think your previous witness suggested, a lot more on the talents and skills of refugees and displaced people themselves. We need to find a way to get assistance directly into the hands of people as opposed to going through a lot of the very expensive delivery systems we have at the moment.

These are things we're actively discussing at the UN, principally because we now have a financial crisis. The UN itself is in a state of great challenge. Unlike other forms of governance, the UN can't borrow money. If people don't pay their assessments to the UN, the UN has no choice but to stop doing things.

In this situation, we have to do things much more efficiently and effectively. I think over the next period of time, particularly given some of the positions being taken by governments about international organizations, international organizations will have to do everything they can to innovate and change. I think we're in the middle of an extraordinary period of that kind of a transformation. It's also important for Canada to stay the course, stay committed and not only be a reliable, steady funder, but also be a funder that, when working with other countries, insists on more efficiencies and innovation to make sure we're getting good value for the money we're investing.

That's very much on my mind at this time in the UN, because having had a bit of experience in working with the organization, I think we have some ideas as to how we might work more effectively. We'll try to start discussing those things in the new year as we approach the new financial year coming up.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I also want to touch on something else you mentioned in your opening remarks. First of all, congratulations on now chairing ECOSOC.

You touched on the fact that you were considering opportunities in the context of ECOSOC to have discussions with UN member states. Could you provide us with more of a glimpse as to what might be on the agenda of ECOSOC insofar as migration is concerned?

[Bob Rae]

We already had a special meeting on Haiti last week, which I called. It was a chance for member states to look in particular at the issue of internal displacement. There are 700,000 people now in the city of Port-au-Prince who have been internally displaced. They've been kicked out of their homes by gangs. I visited those people and the places where they're staying—the refugee camps, schools and other places where they're temporarily located. These are very tough conditions.

We need to focus on education and on making sure that people are being given every opportunity to make sure their kids are in school. We're looking at the health care needs and obviously the food needs that people have. People are going hungry. It's a very serious situation. That's just one example.

In the new year, we'll be looking at working with governments that are receiving a lot of refugees. We'll be looking at countries that are doing well at it, and we'll be trying to champion examples where there's been a lot of innovation and work done with people on the ground and where refugees are taking part in their own governance. They're pursuing—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

I'm sorry, Mr. Rae. Is it possible to wrap up, please, in, say, 25 seconds?

[Bob Rae]

I will quite gladly come to a close.

Those are some examples, Ali, of the things we're doing. We're really trying to make a difference in talking about both internally displaced people and people who are forced to leave their countries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Rae.

Thank you, Mr. Ehsassi.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rae, it's a pleasure to have you with us today.

In your opening remarks, you mentioned human beings. As you said, we're not just talking about numbers today. We are talking about real people. I also want to emphasize that.

If you don't mind, I'd like to look a little more closely at the migration route from South America, often starting in Brazil, then going through Colombia, Venezuela and the Central American Isthmus, to the United States, and sometimes as far as Canada.

Based on your experience and the information available to you, do the transitional countries through which migrants pass facilitate their migration to their new host country, or at least the one they hope to get to?

[Bob Rae]

No. I can describe what I saw in Panama, for example. People arrive from Colombia by canoe on the rivers. They disembark to get some food and see a doctor or a nurse. Then they're put on a bus and told to leave. These are transitional places. These countries are not prepared to accept these people, except for Colombia, which is a good example—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Rae. Perhaps you misunderstood my question.

What you're actually saying is the same as me, in other words that countries are in fact facilitating the passage of migrants through their territory. Is that correct?

[Bob Rae]

Yes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

Please continue with what you were saying about Colombia, since it was interesting.