Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 4th, 2022

[Svitlana Valko]

Yes, I agree totally about the slowness of the ICC, and a previous prosecutor always told us that she didn't have enough resources to investigate such huge scale crimes in Ukraine. The new prosecutor, three months before the war, said that we had enough resources in Ukraine to investigate with our own prosecutors, and that he was not going to open a case.

I'm not sure how many resources they have now. I do agree that ICC should be supported and financially supported by Canada, but I also agree that Canada could help Ukrainian investigators, first of all, with different pressure in the area of justice.

We have already been contacted by the Canadian Bar Association, and they proposed their help in opening the UJ cases not only in Canada, but also in South American countries and others who have this possibility, like Argentina and so on.

I do believe that Canada is already doing a lot in this area and is ready to help, but I also think that we should co-operate more in the linkage of evidence, and I agree that Ukrainians want to make all crimes accountable, and we really need some special tribunal and special procedures.

We do believe, for example, that Russians are now using FAB-500 aerial bombs. Those are 500-kilogram, high-explosive, general-purpose aerial bombs, which they were using before—the same weapon—indiscriminately in Afghanistan and in Syria.

The pattern of attacks and linkage or evidence are something we could co-operate on and investigate together, and probably there will be a lot of the same perpetrators who committed the war crimes before what's happened in Ukraine. It's very important to fight impunity and to show those people who committed those crimes in Ukraine and beforehand that they will be punished. This is very important for the future, not only of Ukraine but also of other countries that are threatened by Russia.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Ms. Valko.

We now go to the second round of questions, and I'll ask all the members to keep it under three minutes.

We will commence with Mr. Zuberi.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'd like to thank all three of you for being here and for your courage and strength, and, as you can see, all of us in this room are united in solidarity behind you.

Within the three minutes, I'd like to give half the time, if necessary, to Ms. Matviichuk. As a human rights defender, I hear what you're saying. I myself have a military background, but I have also worked in human rights for about 20 years.

I'd like to know how you square the circle as a human rights lawyer with your call for military support, arms and other weapons, to defend your country. Can you just square that circle for us?

[Oleksandra Matviichuk]

I have expected myself to be in such a situation, because my main instrument over all of these 20 years I've worked in the human rights protection field was law, but now law is not working. Law couldn't protect people in occupied territories. At Euromaidan SOS, every day we received dozens of requests for help from people in Kherson, Melitopol, Berdyansk, Kahovka, Slavutych and Energodar.

They asked us for help, because they couldn't escape from the city. They told us about enforced disappearances; about threats; about beatings; about intimidation; and about illegal arrests of their relatives, neighbours and active people like journalists, human rights defenders, civil activists, etc. Unfortunately, I saw with my own eyes how the whole of HLAC, the humanitarian law of armed conflict, the Geneva Convention and all of international law, which I devoted my whole life to, now lay in the ruins and is not helping me do my work to protect people, their freedoms, their lives and their rights. That's why I made a tough choice—sorry, but we want to survive.

Sooner or later, the war will finish and we will be able to restore the international order, and I believe totally that legal mechanisms in the future will work and that the traitors will be held accountable for their work and face the international court or an international hybrid tribunal if we create it. But for the current moment, we are dying, and there is no other choice for us other than to defend ourselves from Russian troops and save our civilians. We couldn't defend our people, our land and our values unarmed, which is why I ask for weapons.

Even if I ask for weapons, I know for sure that Putin is not afraid of NATO; Putin is afraid of the idea of freedom. He started this war in 2014 when we had a revolution of dignity, ruined an authoritarian regime and obtained a chance to provide a great democratic transformation. Now in this war, we ask for weapons because we want to live and build a country where the rights of everybody are protected, where the judiciary is independent, where government is accountable and police don't beat peaceful demonstrators.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We turn now to Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for providing important testimony detailing some of the egregious crimes that are being committed and have been committed by the Putin regime.

Seeing the deliberate targeting of civilians, the targeting of schools and hospitals and other civilian infrastructure, it is clear that these are not the actions of a few rogue soldiers, but as the witnesses said, part of a systematic campaign by the Putin regime. In that regard, I commend Mr. Oliphant in outlining the Government of Canada's position of removing the word “alleged” and calling these crimes what they are, which is war crimes.

Today, the U.S. and the U.K. called on Russia to be suspended from the UN Human Rights Council. Is that something you believe would be a small but important step if Canada were to join with the U.S. in that regard?

[Oleksandra Matviichuk]

Do you want to start?

[Svitlana Valko]

I would say that we strongly believe that Canada should take this step.

[Oleksandra Matviichuk]

I support this idea. I've personally participated and campaigned with our international organization partners based in Geneva to suspend Russia from the United Nations Human Rights Council.

It's a huge shame to be present and to be responsible for the human rights mandates of a country such as Russia. It discredits the whole UN system.

It couldn't stop Russia right now, but it provides a huge signal to all top Russian officials and to Russian leadership that such behaviour is not tolerated and they are not a part of the civilized world.

[Oksana Pokalchuk]

If I may, I will not comment.

Thank you.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

We'll now go to Mr. Trudel.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Ms. Matviichuk, I would like to hear your opinion on the fact that Canada sent 10 members of the RCMP to help the International Criminal Court in its investigation on war crimes in Ukraine.

Do you think that was useful? Is it important to do that now?

[Oleksandra Matviichuk]

The work of the International Criminal Court is essential, but it's not enough. That's why I ask Canada to also think about other possibilities to strengthen how perpetrators are brought to justice; international criminal courts focus only on several cases, and we don't know what cases they will choose for investigation.

For us, it's very important to stop the cycle of impunity and to bring to justice all of the people who committed these war crimes by their own hands—all commanders, all political leadership—and who created the situation whereby these war crimes became possible. It's very important.

I have documented war crimes for eight years already. We have united in other efforts with Russian human rights defenders and with human rights defenders from Moldova and Georgia. We identified the same people who committed war crimes in Chechnya, Transnistria, Abkhazia, Ossetia, Crimea and in Donbass. I'm sure that if we united our efforts with human rights defenders from Syria, we would find them in Syria.

It's stated that Russia uses war as a tool to conduct its geopolitical goals. Russia wasn't held accountable for what it did in Chechnya. Russia wasn't held accountable for what it did in Abkhazia, Ossetia or Syria, even when it used chemical weapons against civilians.

It's time to stop this cycle of impunity. In addition to the International Criminal Court, we have to support the idea that the Ukrainian president announced yesterday to create an international hybrid tribunal. It would be very good if Canada decided to lead this process and to create such a coalition, which could bring this idea into force and provide justice for all of the victims of war crimes in Ukraine.

Thank you.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Matviichuk.

I have about a minute left, and I would like to use it to ask one last question.

Could you talk to us about the current the situation in Crimea?

[Oleksandra Matviichuk]

In Crimea we observe three main trends.

Russia, for all these years, has been rapidly transforming the former resort into a powerful base. They formed a joint military union in the central Black Sea and concentrated on ballistic missile attacks. Such actions are a danger for not only Ukraine but others, because they can achieve their targets in the Baltic states, Poland, the Czech Republic, Israel, Syria, etc.

The second trend is that the entire permanent population of Crimea is considered by Russia to be potentially disloyal. Therefore, after the occupation, Russia enforced a policy of expulsion of the most active part of the population from Crimea and replaced them with citizens of the Russian Federation from different regions through controlled migration. As a result—and I don't know the current number—the population growth rate of Sevastopol three years ago was an unprecedented 14%, so we are dealing with forced displacement and colonization, which in itself is a war crime.

The last trend we observed over all these years is that after the Russian occupation, the peninsula became a proving ground for testing new tactics of information warfare, suppression of dissent and formation of military moves. Essentially, Russia has conducted a unique experiment for today of integrating annexed territory, and they have components, such as the forced imposition of citizenship in the Russian Federation and a total attack on the rights and freedom of the population, to keep them in subjection.

The final thing I want to emphasize is the deliberate discrimination and persecution of the Crimean Tatar people, the indigenous people of Crimea. In our list of political prisoners, the majority of them are Crimean Tatars. My friend and colleague Server Mustafayev, who is the head of Crimean Solidarity, was imprisoned for a huge term in a colony, after fabricated criminal cases, only because he had the courage to provide human rights work in the peninsula where people were left alone with only Russian occupiers.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Our last round goes to Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to give an opportunity to Ms. Valko to contribute to the last question that was asked, but I will also ask a quick question and she can answer it and the previous question as well.

One of the things I'm thinking about is how to help Ukraine now, urgently and immediately. I think you've given us some very good steps we can take in terms of forensic support, fridges, kicking Russia out of the United Nations Human Rights Council, trade embargoes and looking at the banking systems. There is a lot we can work on here.

I certainly will be putting forward something to this committee so that we have a statement as a committee, but in terms of immediate and long-term humanitarian support, I'd like some information on that. Canada should play a role in helping Ukraine deal with the humanitarian crisis right now, but also in how to rebuild the country of Ukraine once this crisis is over and once this illegal war has ended.

Ms. Valko, could you start, please?

[Svitlana Valko]

If I could start with the previous question, I want to add to Oleksandra's words.

Most of the population of Ukraine sees on TV the propaganda that Kyiv is already Russian, that Kharkiv is already Russian and that Russia is everywhere in Ukraine and holds the cities.

At the same time, there is opposition to the Russian government. Most Ukrainian Tatars are very afraid that they will be mobilized to the Russian army to fight with Ukraine right now, and they are looking for different possibilities. They are supported by Ukrainian authorities in looking for different possibilities to escape this duty.

Also Crimea now, unexpectedly, became the road for some people from the Kherson region who are stuck in occupation to escape, so they are moving from Crimea to Georgia, Armenia and Turkey.

As we've already said, a lot of people from Mariupol and the Donetsk and Luhansk regions are also trying to escape through Russia. Some of them are successful, and they sometimes appear in those countries without any documents. Some of them are not successful, because Russia takes all of their documents away and forces them to move to concentration camps.

Canada could probably advocate on this with international organizations like the Red Cross and others and also try to return those people or take them to a safer place to restore, not only their dignity but also their citizenship.

To the other question you asked, I think Canada provides a lot of humanitarian support to Ukraine, and we are super-appreciative of this. As we stated before, what we really need is some support of your own supports. What I mean is that some humanitarian trucks full of humanitarian aid have never reached their destinations because of Russians attacking humanitarian trucks and convoys, stealing them very often and then giving them as their own humanitarian aid to citizens of Mariupol.

If that humanitarian aid had some bigger support accompanied by some international organizations or some ministers of foreign affairs of Canada or other countries, it would be a really great support, because it's not only the humanitarian aid that is needed so greatly in Ukraine now, but also help to deliver it to those who need it most right now, including in occupied territories that have no medicine in the drugstores at all because there is nothing coming from Russia or Ukraine. In the Kherson region, they don't have medicine, and there is no possibility—no Russian government will—to provide those medicines there. There should be some pressure on them, not only from Ukraine but from other countries.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Ms. Valko.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Ms. Valko, Ms. Matviichuk and Ms. Pokalchuk.

I can tell you that your testimony has been incredibly powerful and compelling. I truly cannot recall another instance when I have seen all of the members watch and listen as attentively as they did today.

We want to thank you and salute you for the tremendous work you are doing. You will ensure, each of you and others, that justice and accountability do prevail.

We heard from you the many atrocities that are unfolding and that there is no plausible deniability for them. We also heard you say that we should, as an international community, use every available legal mechanism to ensure that justice prevails. Lastly, as a country, we should ensure that Canada does everything we possibly can to assist you.

Thank you very much for everything you have shared with us, and please do take very good care of yourselves.

Thank you.

Members, please remain.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. Chair, before we go in camera, it is 8:40. We we are well over 8:30. We knew that we had business to do. I am recovering from COVID, and many of us will also get COVID, so as a motion, I would move that we adjourn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Absolutely: The meeting is adjourned.