Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

All right.

Mr. Czolij, earlier you started to talk about the situation in Crimea, but you had to cut your answer short when there were only 15 seconds left.

This is indeed not a new war, but a continuation of the war that started in 2014.

Can you tell us about what is happening in Crimea right now?

[Eugene Czolij]

There are a host of crimes being committed in Crimea. I do think that the Russian authorities are trying to totally Russify Crimea. As the American president said, every demonstration of anything Ukrainian is met with severe punishment by the Russian authorities.

You only have to look at the reports of the Organization for Security and Co‑operation in Europe and other bodies of the international community to see how human rights have been violated in Crimea since its invasion by Russia.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

If I were to ask you the question I just asked Mr. Robinson about Mr. Putin's intentions, how would you answer it?

[Eugene Czolij]

I would say to you that Mr. Putin thinks he has found an answer to article 5 of the NATO treaty, according to which an attack on one of the NATO countries is an attack on all of the NATO countries, and that he is using the threat of nuclear weapons to intimidate the NATO countries.

We are faced with a choice: either we allow Mr. Putin to threaten us, to lead us around by the nose, to violate just about every international treaty, and to say that he will use chemical weapons or nuclear weapons, leaving us at his mercy, or we take the necessary steps to end this genocidal war and ensure stability in Europe, which necessarily includes respecting the borders of Ukraine.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

When you say that the necessary measures must be taken, what measures do you have in mind?

[Eugene Czolij]

Earlier, I wanted to tell you one thing, about what can be done. On April 6, the European Union's High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy said this in the European Parliament:

We've given Ukraine nearly €1 billion. That might seem like a lot but €1 billion is what we're paying [Vladimir] Putin every day for the energy he provides us with. Since the start of the war, we've given him €35 billion, compared to the €1 billion we've given Ukraine to arm itself.

Mr. Trudel, I think that first of all, Ukraine should be given the necessary weapons so that it can ensure the protection of its airspace and stop the indiscriminate bombing that destroys infrastructure and residential buildings and kills the population.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michael Cooper]

Thank you, Mr. Czolij—

[Eugene Czolij]

I think that 30% of its infrastructure has been damaged now, and the costs are over $100 billion. We need to provide the necessary weapons to enable Ukraine to protect its territory, and we need to isolate Russia completely.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michael Cooper]

I'm going to have to cut you off.

[Eugene Czolij]

This is what will stop this genocidal war.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michael Cooper]

Thank you.

I'll recognize Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To start with, I want to say that I am deeply appalled by some of the testimony we have heard today and the fact that we have heard that there are bad people on both sides. We are looking at an illegal war and an invasion of a sovereign territory. We are looking at the ways that Russia has gone into Ukraine, despite lying over and over again, has fired on citizens and has, very clearly, done unspeakable, horrific things. To claim that there are bad people on both sides minimizes the pain that Ukraine is going through. I am appalled by that testimony.

Mr. Czolij, I want to give you an opportunity to comment. We have heard from Vladimir Putin. He has said:

As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.

That is, to me, a very clear indication that he feels that they are Russians in Ukraine. I would like you to comment on that, if you could, Mr. Czolij.

[Eugene Czolij]

Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.

Just like you, I was totally appalled by the statements of Mr. Robinson. I'm ashamed that he stated that in front of this committee. He shamed this hearing with that statement by trying to equate what is being done by the Ukrainian army and what is being done by the Russian army. The Ukrainian army fights in accordance with international law. The Russian army violates every international principle on a daily basis. Everything that comes out of Putin's mouth is a blatant lie. He lies as he breathes. To relay and to equate the victim with the aggressor is to do a total injustice to and to shame a process where people like you are looking for ways to stop a genocidal war.

I'd like to quote South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu, and I'd like Mr. Robinson to remember this. He said when injustice is being committed and you remain neutral, you have sided with the oppressor. Through Mr. Robinson's statement before this committee, alleging without any reliable evidence and stating that the atrocities are committed by both sides, he has essentially sided with the oppressor before this committee.

That is a shame.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Czolij. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Prof. Paul Robinson]

May I be allowed a right of reply?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

No, thank you.

I would like to just end my questioning by saying that the New Democratic Party certainly stands with the people of Ukraine and recognizes the invasion by the Russian Federation into Ukraine and the illegal actions being done to the people of Ukraine right now.

I will end my testimony at this point.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michael Cooper]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

I've been very generous with time to the witnesses. I see that Mr. Robinson did want to say something—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would not—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michael Cooper]

If he wishes to do so, I will exercise—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Do not do that with my time.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michael Cooper]

—my prerogative as chair to give him that time, so—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

No. You don't have.... I'm sorry. I challenge the chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michael Cooper]

Okay. The chair has been challenged.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That is not your right.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michael Cooper]

I believe it is, but you have every right to challenge the chair.