Evidence of meeting #17 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fair.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alan Brander  President, Council of Saskatchewan Forest Industries
Eldon Lautermilch  Minister responsible for the Forestry Secretariat, Government of Saskatchewan
Pierre Monahan  Senior Vice-President, Bowater Inc.; President, Bowater, Canadian Forest Products Division

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon. We'll start this second meeting on today's agenda.

We're dealing with the softwood lumber agreement, which was signed on July 1, 2006. We had Minister Emerson at this morning's meeting. We're just back from a short lunch break.

Our witnesses for this meeting are, from the Government of Saskatchewan, Minister Eldon Lautermilch, Saskatchewan Forestry Secretariat; from the Council of Saskatchewan Forest Industries, Alan Brander, president; and from Bowater Incorporated, Pierre Monahan, senior vice-president and president, Canadian Forest Products Division.

We'll start the meeting with the presentations in the order they are listed here.

First of all, Mr. Minister, thank you very much for coming today.

Thank you all very much. We know you have busy agendas outside of this, but I also know that this issue is important to you and to the people of Saskatchewan.

Minister, perhaps you could make your presentation, and then we'll have Mr. Monahan make his.

Mr. Brander, do you have a presentation to make as well?

12:35 p.m.

Alan Brander President, Council of Saskatchewan Forest Industries

Partially, yes.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Okay, we will have yours second, then we'll go to Mr. Monahan, and then to questioning.

Go ahead, please.

12:35 p.m.

Eldon Lautermilch Minister responsible for the Forestry Secretariat, Government of Saskatchewan

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank you and the members of your committee for inviting the Saskatchewan government and the forest industry to speak to you this afternoon about the implications of the softwood lumber agreement 2006--or SLA-2, as it's being called--on our province.

My colleague and co-presenter here today is Mr. Alan Brander, the president of the Council of Saskatchewan Forest Industries and CEO of NorSask Forest Products Inc., our second largest producer and exporter of softwood lumber. Since we'll be sharing this presentation time, I will keep my opening remarks brief and to the point.

Before I speak to the new agreement I'd like to take a couple of minutes to describe the economic footprint that the forest and softwood lumber industries have in Saskatchewan.

To those who have travelled across Saskatchewan on the Trans-Canada Highway, you may be wondering why we're here at all to talk about lumber. On the great plains we don't have many trees--the odd caragana, I suppose--but almost two-thirds of Saskatchewan's land area is forested. We are home to some 300 forest industry firms that produce along the entire wood value chain. The forest industry is now our third largest manufacturing sector. It directly contributes an estimated billion dollars a year to the provincial economy and employs 8,000 people directly and likely double that indirectly. Finally, about 25% of our forest is currently allocated to first nations' interests.

This committee will be particularly interested to know that Saskatchewan has five large sawmills, one paper mill, and two pulp mills that are fully integrated and mutually sustaining commercially. Unfortunately, as some of you will know, that very integration is today causing an unprecedented crisis in our forest industry that in our judgment is likely to be made much worse by SLA-2.

At the outset I'd like the committee to know two things. First, both the Government of Saskatchewan and our provincial industry were and are profoundly disappointed by the lack of opportunity afforded to us to contribute or agree to the so-called terms document on which the final text of the SLA-2 is based.

Since July 2005, neither the provincial government nor our industries were consulted or even informed about the possible terms of settlement of this dispute until immediately before they were announced in the House. Previously, Saskatchewan had been fully involved in both the internal and bilateral negotiating processes, not the least because the U.S. formally included Saskatchewan in its case against Canadian lumber exports.

Second, I'd like you to know that Saskatchewan has always accepted in principle that a negotiated settlement is preferable to never-ending litigation, provided the settlement is fair to Canada and Saskatchewan and delivers long-term, secure access to U.S. markets. In our view, the proposed SLA-2 fails both tests, and we believe it to be especially unfair to Saskatchewan. I want to explain why we've reached those conclusions.

Saskatchewan shares a number of concerns about the proposed SLA-2 that other witnesses before the committee have identified and discussed in depth, including its provisions for calculating provincial quota shares and surge limits--the so-called running rules--for both border measures and the anti-circumvention exit policy and termination clauses.

My colleague Alan Brander may wish to speak to the industry implications of some of these, but I want to address these three issues that are of particular concern to the Saskatchewan government.

First is the issue of fairness. For Canada as a whole, we think we've earned the right to free trade in lumber and the return of all our companies' money with interest.

As you know, the current U.S. Court of International Trade essentially confirmed our rights in these respects last week. Instead, the proposed SLA-2 could dramatically and unfairly restrict our trade for almost a decade. Yet in one of the very plausible scenarios under the so-called option A border measure, our companies could be paying an export tax of over 22% if we exceed our existing market share. For that privilege, the SLA-2 will see our companies paying the U.S. government in interest over $1 billion U.S. and will provide them with the ability to veto, or at least to seriously constrain, the further exercise of provincial governments' options for pursuing for us the interest development.

We simply don't think this is fair to Canada, or to any affected province or its forest industries. But we also believe that the terms of the SLA-2 are particularly unfair to Saskatchewan.

Under current and foreseeable market conditions in North America, we think one of the proposed border measures will apply to Saskatchewan. Due to the way their base periods are calculated under this agreement, either border crossing measure will basically lock our existing sawmills into a status quo situation of serious capacity underutilization, especially relative to our peak performance in 2000, before the latest trade action commenced.

Under the agreement, the commercial reality for Saskatchewan is that the operation of either border measure is likely to cap our U.S. export volume at a level that is 30% to 40% below what we actually shipped in 2000, and over 50% below what we could and should be shipping in 2006 in the free trade arrangement.

In sharp contrast, this agreement provides our two neighbours to the west, for example, with quota volumes and surge limits that are 25% to 30% higher than their shipments were in 2000. Why? It's because, unlike the case in Saskatchewan, many of their mills could afford to absorb the punishing U.S. duties and keep expanding their exports States-side over the past five years.

SLA-2 as currently proposed is likely to impose disproportionately severe trade restrictions on Saskatchewan and Manitoba simply because most of our sawmills couldn't afford to pay U.S. duties and instead shifted their sales into Canada's domestic market. We just don't think it's fair that SLA-2 should punish our industry now for having made that shift in export destination for sound business reasons.

Furthermore, for a province like Saskatchewan, with substantial unallocated timber and harvest rates well below our annual allowable cut, we think the operation of either of the proposed border measures in SLA-2 will effectively preclude any build-out of new lumber capacity in our province.

I'd like the committee to know that in 2001 when the trade challenge was launched, there were plans for three new aboriginal-owned sawmills in Saskatchewan's north that had to be shelved in the face of the U.S. duties. With this new deal, the prospects for reviving those expansion plans appear to be slim to none.

Finally, because our sawmills and our two pulp mills and paper mill are tightly integrated commercially, the SLA-2's new trade restrictions on our sawmills are likely to seriously aggravate the current prices gripping our pulp and paper sector. That's because under the prevailing market conditions, which include the illegal U.S. duties and their proposed replacement by the new Canadian border measures, our existing sawmills will need to sell their softwood chips to our pulp mill in Prince Albert to remain commercially viable. But right now that pulp mill has shut down, and consequently, so have several of our bigger sawmills. Yet an essential precondition for successful restructuring of our ailing pulp and paper sector is a significant build-out, not a significant contraction, of lumber production in and export from Saskatchewan.

I'll wrap up briefly by commenting on two other provisions in SLA-2 that are essentially problematic from Saskatchewan's perspective.

The first is the agreement's so-called policy exits. In light of our impact analysis, Saskatchewan will certainly do everything reasonable to qualify for exit from this deal in the shortest possible time. However, as even federal officials have described them, the policy exit provisions of SLA-2 are likely just faint hope clauses. We think that, having achieved their objective of managed trade through this deal, neither the U.S. government nor its lumber industry has any incentive to be reasonable with provinces about the terms and/or timing of exit from border measures.

The last concern I want to share with the committee is the information-sharing and anti-circumvention language in the new agreement. Our lawyers tell us that, read together, those provisions could seriously constrain the use of existing ministerial authority in our forest resources management regulations. They can preclude Saskatchewan's future use of resource and/or industry development options similar to those that the agreement formally shields or grandfathers for some other provinces. If true, this is also unfair to Saskatchewan and other provinces not similarly protected.

In summary, we think the proposed SLA-2, as is, is unjustified, unfair, and unworkable for Saskatchewan. Like most provincial lumber industries across Canada and, I'm told, like both the B.C. and Ontario governments, we think Canada should now be seeking to secure changes to this deal that address the deficiencies we have all identified.

I want to thank you very much.

I'll now give the floor to my colleague Mr. Alan Brander, who will speak for his industry.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Go ahead, Mr. Brander. If you have short comments to add, please go ahead.

12:50 p.m.

President, Council of Saskatchewan Forest Industries

Alan Brander

Thank you, Mr. Lautermilch.

Most of my comments are in contrast to Minister Lautermilch's, but the proposed softwood lumber agreement will result in severe hardships for Saskatchewan. We've had the biggest swing in the percentage of the market share, as Mr. Lautermilch presented.

The other unique position we have in Saskatchewan is that we're not a lot of multinationals; we are a single sawmill facility. We have two commodities: one is selling lumber and one is selling chips. Basically, in 2000--I'll use some different numbers--Saskatchewan exported 450 million board feet. In the five years following, we averaged about 275 million board feet, and that's what the quota will reflect going forward.

Given that number, I don't think the sawmill industry in Saskatchewan is survivable, especially since the backbone of the sawmill industry in Saskatchewan is dealing with a pulp mill that is shut down at this time. Our second commodity is selling chips to that pulp mill. With the low quota we're looking at for the province of Saskatchewan, in dealing with the sawmills it's very hard to attract a buyer to continue to run that pulp mill with the uncertainty of the fibre going to that mill from the conifer chips coming from the sawmills.

That's all I have right now.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Brander.

Mr. Monahan, would you make your opening comments?

12:50 p.m.

Pierre Monahan Senior Vice-President, Bowater Inc.; President, Bowater, Canadian Forest Products Division

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the Committee for offering me this second opportunity to appear before the Standing Committee on International Trade. I consider it a privilege to be allowed to come before you and present our company's perspective on the agreement initialled by the governments of Canada and the United States of America.

When I last appeared before you, on June 19th, I voiced my approval of the framework agreement. Today I will be presenting Bowater's point of view on the detailed framework agreement as it was initialled on the first of July.

To begin with, I would like to remind you of the important contribution that Bowater, headquartered in Greenville, South Carolina, makes to the Canadian economy. Our sales figures exceed $3 billion US dollars, about half of it from Canadian mills. In addition to softwood lumber, Bowater is also a major player in pulp and paper. Half of the company's assets are in Canada and we employ about 4,000 people at our Canadian mills and in our Canadian headquarters in Montreal.

Last June, I expressed to you our initial support for the framework agreement signed on April 27. I also stressed that the government, as it negotiated the final agreement, should seek to improve certain points.

I can see from the most recent version of the agreement that some points were in fact the subject of heated negotiations. I am pleased to see some improvements and clarifications that show movement in the direction of the requests that we made.

On the other hand, it is our opinion that some points still need to be improved. That is why we support the steps taken by the OFIA and by the CIFQ, two associations of which we are members. We support both their approach and the representations they are making, in view of their efforts to find acceptable and practical solutions for our industry.

We at Bowater believe that an agreement is preferable to an endless legal debate, even as we continue to win again and again before U.S. and international courts. We believe that, given present circumstances in the industry, a negotiated settlement is the course to pursue, although not at any cost.

The settlement must, above all, provide us with a stable marketplace and a predictable business environment. We would like to see government supporting our industry's pursuit of improvements to the agreement. We would like clarification of the scope of article XX, which gives Canada or the United States the right to unilaterally terminate the agreement, even before it comes to an end.

We also need clarification about the rules underlying the quota mechanism, commonly called the "running rules". These rules could have a great impact on our operations and on our ability to meet the expectations of our customers.

Finally, we would consider it normal to have a clause that would prevent complaints being lodged in the year following the end of the agreement. This would have the effect of preventing subsidy or anti-dumping investigations of a period covered by the agreement.

We also still have the same concerns that we expressed in our testimony of June 19 about the federal government's allocation of quotas based on export history. If option B is retained by Ontario, this will cause us serious problems, given that our Thunder Bay sawmill is very new. We therefore ask the government of Canada to press the government of Ontario to create a set-aside for newer arrivals, in recognition of the fact that new mills have been built in recent years. Bowater and our business partners at Fort William First Nation have both invested heavily in our sawmill at Thunder Bay in one of the most innovative aboriginal business partnerships in the country. However, this mill requires adequate access to the U.S. market to continue into the future.

We hope that action will be taken shortly on these requests for clarification and improvement. If adequate responses are forthcoming to our key requirements, Bowater will be very active in helping the government to obtain the 95% support it is seeking to finalize the agreement.

In closing, I would like to mention that the government's offer to set up a program to allow companies to obtain their deposits before the end of the year was an important factor in our decision to support the initial agreement. We applaud the efforts of government in this area.

I would like to thank you again for inviting me and I will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Monahan, for keeping your comments so concise.

We have very little time. We are going to have one round of questioning, and I'm going to hold you completely to the seven minutes, starting with the Liberal Party, the official opposition.

Mr. Temelkovski.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for coming out on the last day of July in this heat to discuss this very hot issue in Canadian history.

I'm surprised and somewhat shocked that the government did not consult you on this issue, as a provincial partner, because we heard this morning from the minister that all attempts were made to discuss and receive some sort of acknowledgement and cooperation from all provincial partners. This is directly related to the minister's remarks.

Is there any way they could have made some contact that you aren't aware of, Mr. Minister?

12:55 p.m.

Minister responsible for the Forestry Secretariat, Government of Saskatchewan

Eldon Lautermilch

I think it's fair to say that until July 2005, when the negotiations collapsed in Washington, we were fully involved in the process. After that date we heard nothing about the terms of settlement until our officials were briefed by their federal colleagues in Washington the day before the Prime Minister announced the agreement in the House of Commons. Since that time we've been involved in fleshing out the terms of the document to the legal text.

But the problem remains that this is an agreement that fundamentally limits us to 1.3% of American exports, when in 2005 we had 2.5% of Canadian exports to the United States. From our perspective, the terms of the conditions--all of those things--although important in any agreement, are precluded by the fact that Saskatchewan is unfairly treated in this agreement in its percentage of exports to the American market. That's our concern.

We would like our national counterparts to have another look at this in terms of fairness for Saskatchewan. We support a negotiated agreement, of course; I think everyone does. The problem from our perspective is that this is a negotiated agreement but it's not a fair agreement, and it's not fair for Saskatchewan. That's our position.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

You also mentioned in your remarks that in your opinion the best agreement, or the agreement that you would be willing to sign off on--if I may paraphrase--is one that would get all of the money back to your province, plus interest.

1 p.m.

Minister responsible for the Forestry Secretariat, Government of Saskatchewan

Eldon Lautermilch

It would obviously be everyone's preference to have all of the money that was taken through these initiatives returned. The basis of our support for an agreement has to be fairness.

I'm going to share with members of the committee Statistics Canada's own figures as they relate to provincial export share--and this is proposed quota-based period versus 2000. I think it will give you a clear idea, in graph form, why we're concerned about Saskatchewan's share of exports being reduced from 2.5% to 1.3%. I think these figures will tell you why we would like the federal government to take another look at this, because from Saskatchewan's perspective we aren't being treated fairly.

As an example, B.C. has an increase of 28%; Alberta has an increase of 24%; Saskatchewan has a decrease of 38%; and Manitoba takes a decrease of 30%. We're only asking for fairness.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Minister, I want you to know that we will include that document in the information considered by the committee as we prepare a report, should we do that.

Mr. Temelkovski.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I'm looking at a copy of the agreement, Mr. Chair, which states on page 55 that the percentage share of the U.S. consumption for Saskatchewan is 0.46%. It's not even the 1.3% that you're stating. Is this an additional decrease of your market share in the future?

1 p.m.

Minister responsible for the Forestry Secretariat, Government of Saskatchewan

Eldon Lautermilch

The numbers I quoted are from 2000, at which time we had 451 million. The average from 2001 to 2005 is 282 million, which is a decrease of 38%.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

If we can move to the conditions to be completed by the federal government, in order to enter into this agreement, we would have to receive agreements from all parties who have pursued legal matters with the United States government or with manufacturers or associations. Is your government involved in any legal matters with a United States party?

1 p.m.

Minister responsible for the Forestry Secretariat, Government of Saskatchewan

Eldon Lautermilch

I don't believe so. I wouldn't want to mislead you. My officials are telling me no, so we're not a party to a legal action.

We're here representing the people of Saskatchewan--the families, the jobs, the opportunities. How can it be that an agreement would contract our ability to access U.S. markets by almost 50%? How can it be that Saskatchewan families are less important than other families across this nation? We're only asking for fair access and that the analysis of what makes for fair access be looked at again. In 2000, we obviously had a certain number that gave us 2.5% of the exports, and now, in 2006, this agreement limits us to 1.3%. How can this be fair?

This is all we're asking. It's not complicated, from our perspective. Obviously there are negotiations, there are terms and conditions, and litigation has been taking place. This has been going on for a number of years. If we're to find an agreement, a negotiated settlement, can't and shouldn't it be fair for all Canadians? Can't and shouldn't it be as fair for Saskatchewan as it is for Alberta, British Columbia, Ontario, and Quebec?

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Minister.

Your time is up, Mr. Temelkovski.

Now to the Bloc Québécois, to Mr. Crête first, and then if there is time, Mr. André.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Mr. Monahan, I wish to congratulate you on the clarity of your brief and your presentation. I will proceed quickly.

You say, “We would like to see government supporting our industry's pursuit of improvements to the agreement.” You are talking more specifically about three improvements. The first one concerns the scope of the article entitling Canada and the United States to terminate the agreement without cause.

In what way would you like the scope to be clarified? With an appendix or an appended letter? What should it say?

1:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Bowater Inc.; President, Bowater, Canadian Forest Products Division

Pierre Monahan

First of all, I think that the message of both governments, American and Canadian, is clear: the agreement as such has been signed, and can never be reopened. So we are looking for a comfort zone so that we do not get tangled up in the interpretation of details, since this would hinder implementation of the agreement. We would definitely like a letter or a memo providing us with the desired explanations and also the desired comfort zone.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

This letter or memo should make some clarifications so as to protect the agreement from challenges or to reduce the chances of early challenges.

1:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Bowater Inc.; President, Bowater, Canadian Forest Products Division

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

You also make the following recommendation, “Finally, we would consider it normal to have a clause that would prevent complaints being lodged in the year following the end of the agreement.”

So, without amending the agreement, that adds about one year to the period in which there would not be any complaints. Could you clarify what that means? Would this fourth year be added after the three full years or immediately after the 23 months?

1:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Bowater Inc.; President, Bowater, Canadian Forest Products Division

Pierre Monahan

I should say first that I have a better understanding since I heard Mr. Emerson’s presentation.

In my mind, when I wrote that remark, it was the third year. This is a seven-year agreement, of which the first two years are firm. Then there is a 30-day notice. Then, in the third year, there is what is called a standstill, that is, there are at least 12 months assured. In fact, if we count the 30 days assured, that makes 13 months. We also want to make sure that, in year 4, year 3 cannot be used as a basis of calculation for any representation regarding antidumping or subsidization. That is what we are seeking. We definitely need time to get reorganized, if there is not going to be an agreement anymore.