Evidence of meeting #2 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was negotiations.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Randle Wilson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Communications and Corporate Planning, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
John Curtis  Chief Economist, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Peter McGovern  Director General, North America Commercial Relations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Susan Gregson  Assistant Director General, Regional Strategies Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Bruce Christie  Director, Multilateral Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Martin Loken  Director, Regional Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

I'm also an economist and I love to work with figures. Everyone always says that, when the Canadian dollar is strong, Canadian businesses should invest, since American machinery and technology is inexpensive. Normally, we could expect that, now, Canadian companies would take advantage of the fact that the dollar has reached 90 cents and invest heavily.

I think that we need to warn exporters, because the situation could quickly deteriorate. I think that we are losing market shares. I would like you to give us some figures. We are losing shares of the American market to emerging economies such as China and Brazil, with regard to lumber. Could you provide us with these figures? This is not an issue we follow closely, but we are taking advantage of your presence here to become better educated.

I want to ask a specific question about negotiations on the Free Trade Area of the Americas. Perhaps Bruce Christie could answer it. I want to know whether any negotiations are currently underway. There is still a schedule, but there's nothing else. Has anything happened in the last few months in terms of negotiations on the Free Trade Area of the Americas?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Paquette. Your time is up.

Perhaps we could get an answer from Mr. Wilson.

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Communications and Corporate Planning, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)

Randle Wilson

Yes, if I may invite Mr. Loken to the table.

4:10 p.m.

Director General, North America Commercial Relations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)

Peter McGovern

Mr. Chairman, could I add to Mr. Paquette's question? The figures are interesting. It is true that our exports to the United States have dropped slightly, however, China represents our biggest competitor and 47 per cent of exports from China to the United States are actually trade between American subsidiaries and the parent company. So it's not really pure trade. This is rather typical of globalization, and I think it's important to state that.

I could add another interesting element to this debate. I am not an economist. Given that —

An hon. member

You have a beautiful tie on.

4:10 p.m.

Director General, North America Commercial Relations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)

Peter McGovern

Thank you very much, but you must remember that I spent four years in Italy.

With regard to the strength of our dollar, there has been a very interesting development with regard to our figures. For the first time, Mexico has surpassed Japan and is now the second-highest source of our imports. This was just in reference to a point you raised. Canadian businesses are taking advantage of the possibility of buying machinery from, among others, Mexico, in order to modernize their equipment. This is clearly something we need to follow but I think this trend already exists. Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Loken.

Martin Loken Director, Regional Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Good afternoon. My name is Martin Loken. I'm the director of the regional trade policy division at Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Mr. Paquette, thank you for your question about the FTAA. Not much is happening right now with regard to the FTAA. Perhaps you are aware that, in November 2005, at the Summit of the Americas, the leaders of most countries reaffirmed their interest in the FTAA, since this is a tool that promotes economic integration and the liberalization of trade in the Americas.

I believe that 29 of the 34 countries represented at Mar del Plata reaffirmed their support for the FTAA. However, there was no consensus with regard to the resumption of negotiations. The government of Colombia offered, in Mar del Plata, to consult with the FTAA participants and also to hold a meeting at the appropriate time. We are awaiting the results of this consultation.

In the meantime the co-chairs of the negotiations, the United States and Brazil, must resolve their differences with regard to the FTAA. There has not yet been a breakthrough in their negotiations. Therefore, there is no specific date on which negotiations will resume.

That said, the FTAA remains an initiative that Canada supports. We believe that it is important to improve the conditions for investment and trade in our hemisphere, and the FTAA is an extremely useful means by which to achieve this.

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Loken.

Now we go to the government side, to the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of International Trade, Ms. Guergis, go ahead.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Helena Guergis Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Thank you.

First, I was not present for your election, Mr. Chair, so I do want to give you my congratulations.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I'll keep that in mind when it comes to allocating time for questions.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Helena Guergis Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

I'd also like to give my appreciation to all of the officials who are here from the department. Thank you for taking time out of your schedules to be here with us. We really appreciate the good information that you're giving us today and that I am sure you will continue to give us in further meetings.

Being that Canada has really only completed one free trade deal since 1997, while other countries, the United States and Australia, have.... Can you give us perhaps your opinion as to why you think Canada has not done so in the past? Also, there are many rumours out there about a free trade agreement with Korea, some media reports indicating that we're very close and also some media reports indicating that there are some issues with shipbuilding and the auto industry. I was hoping that you could clarify that for us and give us some specific details.

4:15 p.m.

Director, Regional Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Martin Loken

Thank you for the question.

In terms of free trade agreements, first I'll step back. Canada has essentially been pursing trade and investment liberalization on three important tracks: there's of course the multilateral work that we're doing in Geneva; there's the all-important work with the United States and Mexico in the North American context; and then for at least the last 10 to 15 years there's been a third track, which is the bilateral liberalization. We have a number of tools to promote trade and investment liberalization bilaterally, of which a free trade agreement is one, although an extremely important and powerful tool.

We have right now agreements with United States and Mexico, the NAFTA. We have agreements with Israel and with Chile; those two agreements were concluded in 1997. And more recently we made an agreement with Costa Rica, which was concluded in 2001 and went into force in November 2002.

We have a number of negotiations that are ongoing. In 2001 we launched free trade negotiations with Singapore as well as with four Central American countries, the CA4 we call them. There are also negotiations ongoing with EFTA, the European Free Trade Association countries, that started in 1998, and more recently Korea. And I'll come back to Korea in a bit more detail to answer the second part of your question.

Every negotiation presents its own set of challenges. We're working, and have been working for some time, with each of the countries that we're negotiating with to try to resolve the different issues that stand in the way of an agreement.

Probably the agreement that's the furthest advanced right now is the negotiations with the Central America 4. In fact, a small team of us are going to be heading down to Guatemala next week to meet informally with our Central American counterparts. It will be the first face-to-face meeting with them since February 2004. So we're going to take stock of where we're at and see if we can find a way to resume in a formal fashion and try to negotiate and conclude this agreement as soon as possible.

It's no longer, if it ever was, an academic notion that the free trade agreements that other countries have with Canada's partners can impact on our market access. We see this case now quite vividly in Central America where the United States has a free trade agreement with the four Central American countries we're negotiating with plus Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic. We're hearing reports that this is beginning to have an effect on established Canadian exporters to the region because now the United States is getting tariff-free treatment, at least for some products at the outset, in these countries whereas Canadian exporters are facing a tariff. I think this underlines the importance of resuming and trying to conclude that negotiation in particular.

But more generally on free trade agreements, we are working hard to figure out how we can make progress and finish up our negotiations with all of our current partners.

On Korea specifically, it's at a relatively early stage in the negotiation. We've only been formally negotiating with Korea since July 2005, and that was preceded by a thorough consultation process with Canadians. There is no schedule for concluding the agreement. We are not on the verge of concluding it. We do hear that the Koreans would like to conclude it by the end of this year, but Canada has not set out any target for concluding it. There is still an awful lot of work to do. These things are extremely complicated. We had the fifth round in Ottawa last month and we have the sixth and seventh rounds notionally scheduled for late June and late September of this year. So we have lots of work to do, but we're continuing to consult extremely intensively with a variety of Canadian interests, including the automobile industry and the shipbuilding industry.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Helena Guergis Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Do I have a few more minutes?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

You have two minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Helena Guergis Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Two minutes, okay.

Quickly, let's go back to the agricultural subsidies and the issue of the negotiations at WTO. I'm sure that many of my colleagues around the table have spoken with many in the sector, and we're getting different opinions and suggestions and recommendations as to what Canada's position should be.

What do you see that Canada's position should be at the WTO negotiations in terms of agriculture?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Christie, go ahead.

4:20 p.m.

Director, Multilateral Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Bruce Christie

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Our objectives in the agriculture negotiations are to pursue, as best we can, the creation of a level playing field in the agriculture and agrifood sector globally. Most importantly, along with many other members, we're aiming to eliminate the massive agricultural export subsidies, especially in the European Union market. We're trying to substantially reduce the trade-distorting domestic support programs of some members. In that particular instance, we're looking at some of the farm aid programs provided by the U.S. government that make it difficult for Canadian farmers to compete in that market, but also, and equally important, we're seeking new, commercially real market access for agricultural producers in representing our offensive interests in the negotiations. That's a very ambitious set of objectives, and for most of us in the negotiations they can at times work at cross-purposes, because, let's face it, we're essentially down to the nitty-gritty here in the agriculture negotiations. This is the sector that we were not able to tackle through all the previous rounds of multilateral trade negotiations that we've had over the past fifty years.

So it's been one thing to reduce our industrial tariffs. In a country like Canada, for example, we're at a point where we have an average industrial tariff of abound 5%, and we're still trying to seek opportunities for Canadian manufactured goods in some of these emerging markets that my colleague mentioned, like Brazil and India.

In agriculture we're hoping to pursue our offensive interests in obtaining new and real market access in key markets, but at the same time preserve our ability to manage some of our domestic programs, like our supply management systems and our Wheat Board. We're trying to defend those interests as particular institutions that serve Canada well and, arguably, aren't trade-distorting.

This is our objective in the negotiations. How it will all turn out in the end is a difficult question to answer, because the agenda, as I mentioned, is a very ambitious agenda and the negotiations are getting right down to the quick at this point.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Christie.

Before we go to Mr. Julian, could I just ask a bit of a follow-up question on that?

There was an agreement reached in Hong Kong on export subsidies, or at least there was a tentative agreement. Is that not correct? If it is, could you just comment on that and what it would mean? Has there been any kind of dollar value placed on what it would do to the price of agricultural commodities if export subsidies were eliminated on the schedule set in Hong Kong—or that was agreed to tentatively in Hong Kong?

4:25 p.m.

Director, Multilateral Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Bruce Christie

The agreement that we reached in Hong Kong certainly did not go as far as we would have liked. As we and other countries entered Hong Kong in the weeks before the conference, we were forced to collectively recalibrate our objectives. We did so to avoid another all-out collapse of the conference, as we had seen in the previous ministerial conference in Cancun in 2003.

We were pushing very hard to set a target end date for the complete elimination of export subsidies by 2008, and at the end of the day we couldn't get the Europeans, specifically, to agree to that timeline. We agreed to a date of 2013.

So it certainly didn't meet our objectives. It was at least an agreement of intent and showed the commitment by members to eliminate these massive export subsidies, but we see it as an interim step and we would hope to further reduce that deadline closer to where we are now. Hopefully we can achieve that by the end of the year.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Christie.

Now for the final questioner in the initial round, Mr. Julian, for seven minutes, and then we'll go to the second round.

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair

And thank you to the witnesses for coming. There are a lot of subjects we want to go over, so we appreciate you being available so promptly.

Softwood lumber of course won't be on the agenda for today; it will be on the agenda for Monday. Mr. Chair, after the witnesses have finished, I'll have a procedural point to raise for next Monday's meeting.

Getting back to the broader trade agenda, I just want to follow up on the last set of questions to Mr. Loken and Mr. Christie. Specifically, in terms of the Canada-Korea agreement, what work have we done to obtain an automobile exemption? That's something that folks in the auto industry are very concerned about, so I'd like to know where the state of play is both for the auto industry and for shipbuilding.

Secondly, for the WTO negotiations, it has been a matter of some concern to the agricultural community, of course--we've seen it with the farmers who have been here a number of times over the last few weeks--about the impact if we compromise in any way on the supply management sector. You mention an ambitious agenda that we have, but I want to be sure that it doesn't mean compromising in any way on the supply management sector and the communities that depend on it.

So those would be my first two questions.

4:25 p.m.

Director, Regional Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Martin Loken

Regarding Korea, if I understand correctly, when you refer to an exemption for automobiles, you're referring to exclusion from tariff elimination in the free trade agreement.

As a developed country member of the WTO, when we enter into a free trade agreement, we have to cover what's called “substantially all trade”. This means we have to cover virtually all of the actual trade between our two countries. There isn't a strict threshold, but it's accepted that at least 90% of the trade between countries has to be subject to tariff elimination.

Something in the order of 30% of our imports from Korea are automobiles, so I think the notion of trying to outright exclude automobiles from tariff elimination would be very difficult to consider. In fact, in all our free trade agreements to date, the Canadian approach has been to cover all industrial products through the tariff elimination and then have exemptions in only very limited areas, among agricultural products.

Automobiles and ships and all other industrial products would be subject to tariff exclusion or elimination in the FTA with Korea. But that doesn't mean the government doesn't have other levers with which to address the sensitivities of the automobile industry. For example, the length of time over which the tariff would be phased out with Korea is negotiable.

Also, we're working very closely with the automobile industry to look at how we can address non-tariff barriers in the Korean market, because this is one of the issues they brought to our attention quite forcefully, that there are some challenges getting their product into Korea. We're working with the industry to figure out what kinds of provisions we can build into the agreement itself to deal with the non-tariff barriers in Korea.

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Those are two ways you're dealing with the concerns that the auto industry has expressed. They're very valid concerns, as I'm sure you realize.

4:30 p.m.

Director, Regional Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Martin Loken

Well, the consultations are very close. And yes, the main avenue is to try to get information from them on the non-tariff barriers in the Korean market so that we can then determine how best to structure disciplines in the agreement. The concerns about the potential impact of tariff elimination from the industry are being heard loud and clear, and we factor that into our positions with the Koreans.

You have to bear in mind with Korea that you already have Kia and Hyundai that have set up, or are setting up, manufacturing facilities in the United States. Once they meet the required rules of origin, they will soon be able to send vehicles to Canada duty-free under the NAFTA. Our assessment is that the incremental impact of eventual tariff elimination on automobiles from Korea will be quite limited.