Evidence of meeting #36 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
You completed your three minutes, Mr. Julian.
We will now go to the recorded vote on the amendment.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
You have introduced a completely new rule of procedure that was not adopted last Thursday. We adopted rules of procedure last Thursday.
We've had the guests here to help us along and to facilitate this. You are now penalizing any member who asks a question of the panel. It is not going to lead to better legislation. It is going to lead, I would submit, to worse legislation.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Mr. Julian, those are the rules. Let's go ahead with this. It's routine at committees.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
For any committee I've ever been at, the answers of the witnesses are considered to be part of the time of the questioner. It's routine, Mr. Julian.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Mr. Julian has challenged the decision of the chair. The motion that we vote on is not debatable, but it will be to sustain the ruling of the chair.
(Chair's ruling sustained: yeas 10; nays 1)
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
We'll go to the recorded vote on the amendment.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
We now go to clause 5 as amended. Is there any discussion?
Yes, Mr. Julian.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
On clause 5, we have improved it to a certain extent, but certainly not to the point that I would see complete approval. We still have the problem of some obscurity and lack of clarity around clause 5 itself in the case where we have products that are exported by truck.
Mr. Cardin was very eloquent in defending subclause 5(1), although I think it's important to say there's some ambiguity around subclause 5(1).
We could certainly try to clarify it in discussions with our panel here, but unfortunately, you've ruled that we can't use the panel to ask questions, without taking away from the 180 minutes.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Mr. Julian, in fact, that's not what I said at all. I said normal procedure will apply, which is that the responses from the witnesses will be included in the time for the member. It's standard procedure, Mr. Julian.
Do not misconstrue what I've said. I hope that clarifies what I said.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Mr. Chair, on clause-by-clause, witness time--when you have a panel that represents the government--is not deducted from the time that is actually allotted to members to speak to clauses and amendments. So we have a situation here where you have, just the same, penalized members for going to the panel for clarification on issues.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Mr. Julian, this is not relevant to the debate on clause 5. Get to the debate or we'll go straight to the question.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Mr. Chair, I am speaking to clause 5; I'm speaking to the somewhat ambiguous subclause 5(1). I'm speaking very deliberately to that. But at the same time, I regret your ruling and I feel it is unfortunate.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Okay, there is a relevance issue.
Let's go to the vote on clause 5.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Mr. Chair, you're running rampant over the rules of order here. When you have a three-minute time limit, the issue of repetition or relevance is not something that can be imposed. In the same way, with the House of Commons, when we have imposed time limits, the issue of relevance and repetition cannot be used as a tool of censorship, and that is indeed what you are doing. You are censoring the speech of the members around this table.
We have an imposed time limit of three minutes. You have handcuffed members even more by now saying that if we refer to the guests, that time will be deducted. You cannot start to impose censorship over what members are saying in relation to any clause.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Excuse me, Mr. Julian. You're starting to repeat yourself in your point of order. I'm going to end that if you're not going to get to some new material.
Let's move on with this.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
So if we go to clause 5, Mr. Chair, we have subclause 5(1), which says that:
For the purposes of this Act, the time at which an exported softwood lumber product is considered to be exported is the time at which the product was last loaded aboard a conveyance for export.
The issue here--in subclause 5(1)--is the fact that the conveyance is not defined. And the conveyance, if it is indeed a truck wagon as opposed to a truck cab, would be subject to two different interpretations. That is something that I think we would need to clarify with our panel--had we the opportunity to do so.
I think that ambiguity is something that lessens the strength of clause 5, and despite the fact that we now have an amendment brought in by Mr. Cardin,
which, it should be said, does help to explain subclause 5(2), we are left with a situation that is ambiguous. Subclause 5(2) says:(2) However, if the softwood lumber product is exported by rail [...]
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Okay, Mr. Julian, your time is up, and I did deduct time for the point of order. Your time is up.
Thank you.
We'll go now to the recorded division on clause 5 as amended.
(Clause 5 as amended agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1)
(On clause 6--Arm's length)
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
We now go to clause 6.
First is an NDP motion.
Mr. Julian, go ahead.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
I would like to move, for the rules of order, that questions asked of the panel that is here today not be deducted from the time allocated to amendments. That's a motion that's--