International Trade Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I think it is, Mr. Chair, so I'd ask the—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

We need it either in writing or we need you to go through it again.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It would be my pleasure to do that.

Reading from amendment CPC-2, “That Bill C-24 be amended by adding after line 22 on page 5 the following new clause:

10.1(1) the following exports of softwood lumber products are excluded from the charge referred to in that section:

(a) exports from

I would add the words “the provinces of” before “Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island or Newfoundland and Labrador”, and to paragraph 10.1(1)(b) the words “the” prior to “Yukon” and “territory” after, and the word “Territory” after “Nunavut”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Julian, are you speaking to that or have you done that?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I'd be pleased to, Mr. Chair. I haven't spoken to it, but I appreciate your invitation to speak to that. It's an important subamendment and I appreciate your request that I explain it further. This is an important bill, as you know, so every word is important.

Here we're trying to increase the clarity around the particular jurisdictions that are excluded from the softwood agreement and from the charges that are levied in clause 10. We've added a new clause 10.1, and essentially what we need to do is to clarify in a very specific or definitive way what exports “are excluded from”. It has to be something that holds up. As I mentioned earlier in relation to clause 6, what we do will have an impact on how the coalition approaches its next attack on Canadian lumber. Because of that, the decisions we take today on how to word specific clauses will have an impact on how the coalition puts together its legal case. That's certainly the case for clause 6, which we have adopted. It is equally the case, I would submit, Mr. Chair, for clause 10.1 We are trying to get clause 10.1 and 10 to work. It's much like trying to shove a V8 into a smart car; it's not going to work unless we make sure the space is there to try to put in that engine in a way that makes sense.

What we have been doing here by not referring specifically to the provincial jurisdictions, but in a more general way to areas—Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, or Newfoundland and Labrador—is that we have been leaving open the possibility that the coalition could then come back at us. By referring to the provinces, we're referring to very strict legal definitions, those that have—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay, Mr. Julian, your time is up.

Does anybody else want to speak to Mr. Julian's subamendment?

Then we'll go to the recorded division on Mr. Julian's subamendment.

(Subamendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 3)

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I just want to make a comment here.

Mr. Julian, if I see subamendments such as the one that you just proposed, which I believe is frivolous, I will rule that way in the future, and I won't allow it to go ahead. That is just a caution, Mr. Julian. We have to deal with some substance here at this committee.

Let's now go to the amendment CPC-2 as amended.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Julian, talking to the amendment CPC-2.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm offering another subamendment to the amendment CPC-2. That is in subclause (3):

An exported softwood lumber product is deemed to be exported from Yukon,

--we should have had more clarity on that, but--

the Northwest Territories or Nunavut if the product underwent its primary processing in one of those territories from softwood sawlogs originating in one of those territories or the state of Alaska.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Julian, I didn't catch the subamendment there. Where was the subamendment?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It was “or the state of Alaska”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

The state of Alaska was inserted where, Mr. Julian, just for clarity?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It was at the end of subclause (3).

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

It was after “territories”.

Mr. Julian, was it “or the state of Alaska”, or “and the state of Alaska”?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It was “or the state of Alaska”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

We need clarification from the witnesses here on that proposed subamendment as to whether you believe it is within the scope of the bill.

[Michael Solursh, Counsel, Trade Law Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

No, it's not. There is no exclusion provided under the softwood lumber agreement for exports from the state of Alaska. It's solely for the Atlantic provinces, Northwest Territories, Yukon, Nunavut, and excluded companies. That's it. The state of Maine is also on that list.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

And the state of Maine.

Mr. Julian, your subamendment is out of order.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Chair, with respect, it is not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

There is no need to vote on that; it's out of order.

Let's go ahead with the vote.

A point of order, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Chair, it is very much in order. This is something that has substance, and despite your comments about frivolousness, we added over 100 amendments because we take this bill very seriously indeed. I resent those comments, and I resent your trying to censor what are essentially important aspects to improve this badly botched bill. I challenge your decision, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Julian, your subamendment is out of order because it's beyond the scope of this bill. We can't go back and renegotiate the softwood lumber deal. We talked about that upfront, I believe.

Let's just move on.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

A point of order.

I challenge your decision, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

We'll go to a recorded division to sustain the decision of the chair.

(Chair's ruling sustained: yeas 10, nays 1)

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

The decision of the chair is upheld.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

We will now go to the amendment, with the addition of the subamendment.