Evidence of meeting #36 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dennis Seebach  Director, Administration and Technology Services, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Marc Toupin  Procedural Clerk
Mary McMahon  Senior Counsel, Legal Services Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Michael Solursh  Counsel, Trade Law Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Cindy Negus  Manager, Legislative Policy Directorate, Canada Revenue Agency
Paul Robertson  Director General, North America Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

11:25 a.m.

Counsel, Trade Law Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Michael Solursh

I can't answer if it would require more expenditure. But obviously it would require expenditure because it would lead to a potential dispute. To defend disputes would require government expenditure if we are defending a charge. So in that respect, it would increase expenditure.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

All right.

A minute, Mr. Julian, please.

Okay, Mr. Julian, your subamendment is in order and you have spoken to it. Let's go to the....

Yes, Mr. Julian.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

This is absurd. The subamendment is in order and you're saying I can't speak to it.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

You already have, to some extent.

November 7th, 2006 / 11:25 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

I haven't spoken to it. What we've had is clarification from the panel. We know now that this is in order. As a result of that, I would like to speak to it now that it has been found to be in order, and I thank you for that.

I think this gets to the crux of what we are doing here today, Mr. Chair, which is to try to endeavour to lessen the series of penalties that are imposed upon Canadian softwood producers right across the board: eighteen months in prison for countermanding in any way Bill C-24; exceptional powers to go in and interfere with directors of companies and to interfere with trust funds they may have set up at any time in their lives. These are all issues that are front and centre in how we approach Bill C-24.

Now we have a situation where in the agreement itself we have simply, and I'll state it for the record: “Canada shall retroactively” impose on the entities or entities responsible for any excess shipments from the Maritimes a charge equal to “$C X, where X is determined according to the following formula”.

The formula--

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Okay, Mr. Julian, your time is up.

Did anybody else want to speak on that?

We will now go to the recorded division on Mr. Julian's subamendment.

(Subamendment negatived: nays 10; yeas 1)

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Chair, are we now on consideration of the amendment itself?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

That is correct. I was coming to that, Mr. Julian. I am running the meeting.

We are now going to the amendment as amended. We will go to the vote on that.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm glad to actually have the opportunity to speak to the clause 14 amendments--CPC-3--with the subamendments that we have adopted from Mr. LeBlanc. That is helpful, because from the way the amendment was originally crafted, what we ended up with was a situation in which primary processing had to happen in four provinces before the calculation could be made. It was obviously not in the interests of the maritime lumber industry.

The subamendment that we have adopted helps to clarify exactly what the primary processing has to be, but we still end up with this punitive charge on maritime lumber. It is an extremely tight margin for maritime lumber. In the case that you have an aggregate of total production in a calendar quarter such that total inventory is exceeded, we have this excessive punitive charge that is levied against maritime lumber. I don't see how any representative from the Maritimes could vote for it. We have to reduce that charge.

It's very clearly a formula that's set out in the agreement, but the percentage numbers are set out as an appendix--not in the agreement itself, where there is simply provision for a formula. That's an important thing to note, Mr. Chair.

We have to approach this whole issue very carefully to ensure that we're not penalizing the maritime lumber industry in the way that we're penalizing the industry elsewhere in the country. Let there be no mistake, Mr. Chair; this is a punitive bill. This is a bill that bullies and cajoles the lumber industry across the country.

It's important to note that only 25% of the industry has actually signed on to EDC; 75% said no way, including Canfor Corporation. Canfor Corporation has not signed on to the EDC process. That must raise serious questions, Mr. Chair, when you have 75% of the industry not going through EDC to get their 67-cent dollars, when they can go directly to U.S. Customs and Border Protection and get, as we saw last Friday, 100% dollars because of the win on October 13 in the Court of International Trade. That win has forced the hand of Customs and Border Protection, and now those moneys are starting to flow. Those first cheques from Customs and Border Protection are going directly to the softwood companies.

We're penalizing them in a wide variety of ways. Why would we penalize the maritime lumber industry for moving just notionally above what their actual aggregate sum of total production and total inventory is? We're putting handcuffs on them. Why? We won in the Court of International Trade. There's no reason to do this when we have, as we know, a Court of International Trade ruling that says all of the unliquidated entries must be liquidated, which is what U.S. Customs and Border Protection is doing--making those payments directly now, in 100% dollars. We're putting a straitjacket on the maritime lumber industry, imposing a punitive charge that is completely inappropriate.

It's hard to say what we should do now, Mr. Chair. We have a situation in which we have an amendment that penalizes severely the maritime lumber industry. It shouldn't. It doesn't have to. We have the court judgment--

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Julian, you're out of time.

We will now stand that amendment as amended for now.

We now go to number 26, which is out of order. The motion is to withdraw, which is out of order. You vote down the clause if you'd like to remove the clause.

Now we can go back to the vote, then, on our amendment.

Yes, go ahead, Mr. Julian.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

With respect, I do not know how you are proceeding. You are not obeying the rules of procedure that were distributed last Thursday. You are not obeying the resolution that was adopted this morning. I do not understand how you are proceeding.

If you are proceeding according to your own logic, could we have a paper that indicates how you are choosing to proceed, because you are off on both of them?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I'll explain once again, Mr. Julian, which I've done, but I will do it again.

We have completed the debate on page 22. On the amendments I've been speaking about, pages 23, 24, and 25 have been withdrawn or dealt with in one fashion or another. Page 26 is out of order, Mr. Julian.

We are now going to the vote on the amendment, as amended, on page 22.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

I did not hear Mr. LeBlanc withdraw his amendment, and I did not hear Ms. Guergis.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

He did, Mr. Julian. He in fact did that explicitly.

We have done this. We are now going to the recorded division on amendment CPC-3, as amended.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Helena Guergis Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

I abstain.

(Amendment as amended agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0)

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Yes, Mr. Julian.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

As it's 11:35, I'd like to move an adjournment.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Julian, you're putting forth a motion to adjourn. It contradicts the motion we passed at the last meeting that governs our procedure here today.

Let's proceed. We are going to stand the vote on clause 14 and we're going back to page 14 of the amendments. We are now on page 14, amendment NDP-5.

(Clause 14 allowed to stand)

(On clause 11--Export from a region)

Mr. Julian, do you wish to move the amendment?

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

It's a point of order, Mr. Chair.

When you say we're standing the vote, you are also standing debate.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Yes.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

We adopted a motion this morning that it would be debated and voted on individually. What that means is you are standing debate for clause 10.1 and clause 14. When we come back to those clauses, we will debate those clauses and we will then go to a vote on those clauses.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Yes, Mr. Julian, that is in fact correct, just on the clause, because we haven't had the debate on the clause.

When I call for the vote, Mr. Julian can choose to debate it for three minutes. That is just on the clause--clause 14, I believe it is.

Mr. Julian, do you wish to move NDP amendment 5, which is on page 14 of the package dealing with clause 11?

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Chair, since we are jumping all over the place, I hope you will provide me with some consideration to zip through these many amendments and these many clauses.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Julian, the clock is ticking.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Chair, I asked for consideration to find my place and I was awaiting you, in a very polite, respectful way. I will start now.