Evidence of meeting #45 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brazil.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kenneth Frankel  Board Member, International Trade Advisor, Canadian Council for the Americas
Eduardo Klurfan  Vice-Chairman, Canadian Council for the Americas

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our guests today. We continue our study of Canada's trade policy.

Today we're looking at Canada's trade policy in the Andean community. We have as witnesses today, from the Canadian Council for the Americas, Eduardo Klurfan, vice-president, and Kenneth Frankel, board member and international trade adviser.

I will leave the introductions at that, and gentlemen, if you're ready to start the presentation, we'll get to that, and then we'll go directly to questioning. Thank you again very much for coming today. We do appreciate it, and we are looking forward to your presentations and to the meeting.

11:10 a.m.

Kenneth Frankel Board Member, International Trade Advisor, Canadian Council for the Americas

Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. Thank you for inviting us to be here with you this morning.

My name is Ken Frankel. I'm a lawyer and a political commentator based in Toronto, and a member of the board of directors of the Canadian Council for the Americas. As Mr. Chairman said, I'm joined by Eduardo Klurfan, who is a vice-president of Scotiabank, vice-president of the Canadian Council for the Americas, and the chairman of the Brazil-Canada Chamber of Commerce.

The CCA is the principal private sector link between Canada, Latin America, and the Caribbean. As a networking information vehicle, the CCA's primary objective is to stimulate the expansion of Canadian commercial interests in the countries in the region.

The CCA creates awareness of opportunities that the region offers to Canadians, and it has been playing a key role in organizing outreach activities for heads of state, ministers, and business leaders from countries throughout Latin America and the Caribbean.

The Brazil-Canada Chamber of Commerce is our sister organization and shares our goals and objectives by focusing on commercial relations between Canada and Brazil. The BCCC and the CCA are non-profit associations managed through I.E. Canada, which is the Canadian Association of Importers and Exporters.

We rely on our member companies, all of which have taken advantage of investment and trade opportunities in many countries in the region, for our financial support.

Our conversation today is radically different from what it would have been 25 or even 5 years ago. Many Latin American countries were run by authoritarian governments 25 years ago, and those that weren't vacillated between military control and weak civilian rule. With few exceptions, the economies were highly protectionist. Investment by outsiders was restricted entirely in many sectors, restricted to minority stakes in others, and subject to all manner of regulatory bottlenecks, currency controls, opaque requirements, and legal processes. Licensing intellectual property was particularly restrictive in the Andean region.

But as authoritarian governments were swept away, so were many of the former economic policies. The neo-liberal model, though not completely or competently undertaken in all instances, included the privatization of state enterprises, the elimination of some and streamlining of other regulatory requirements, and the relaxation of many barriers to foreign investment and trade with Latin America.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chairman, the interpreters would appreciate it if Mr. Frankel could slow down a little bit.

11:10 a.m.

Board Member, International Trade Advisor, Canadian Council for the Americas

Kenneth Frankel

Okay, fine.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

For the translation, if you could go a little slower it would be helpful.

11:10 a.m.

Board Member, International Trade Advisor, Canadian Council for the Americas

Kenneth Frankel

Sure. Would you like me to back up?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

No, that's fine, just continue.

11:10 a.m.

Board Member, International Trade Advisor, Canadian Council for the Americas

Kenneth Frankel

Latin American governments privatize a full range of industries: telephone, electricity, water, power, banking, transportation, and others. Though these reforms have made transacting business in Latin America easier, there are still challenges. In addition to the transactional challenges that still exist, there is now further competition from the expanding activities in the hemisphere of China and India.

If Canada is to achieve the mandate to take advantage of emerging markets, as laid down by Minister of Finance Flaherty in Advantage Canada, the government and the private sector need to redouble their efforts on Latin America. We should be under no illusion that anything less than a unified and aggressive effort will yield the desired results.

Before listing our five concrete recommendations, I will digress for a minute to illustrate the kind of unified effort we believe is necessary. Before the 1990s, Spain had negligible investment in or trade with Latin America. I worked for a Spanish company at that time and lived in Madrid. For a number of reasons we can discuss later if you wish, Spain became the dominant foreign investor in Latin America through the 1990s.

Why do I raise the Spanish case? It's because the successful Spanish reconquest of Latin America was a national goal. It was the product of a union of strategic government planning and business drive. The government took political and economic leadership, a long-term view, and bolstered its fiscal and trade policies with all manner of support for business chambers, exchanges, and other outreach.

We may never reach the level of government commitment toward Latin America commensurate with that exhibited by the Spanish government; however, I would suggest that the Canadian government has not even exhibited a sustained strategic vision for bolstering Canadian commercial activity or political engagement in Latin America. This clearly has not and will not benefit Canada or Canadian business.

We have five recommendations. The first is support for business facilitation programs. Canada's trade commissioners in Latin America, provincial export promotion agencies, Economic Development Canada, and other government agencies have provided excellent service. They are particularly vital for SMEs that have the will but not the contacts, know-how, and resources to tackle new markets, particularly in Latin America, without logistical support. Unfortunately, these support programs appear to be chronically underfunded and have had to be cut back. We urge the committee to examine the full range of services provided and the funding of those services, particularly in light of what our competitors are providing.

Our second recommendation is on support for business partnerships and outreach. The Canada hemispheric economic relationship cannot achieve its full potential without having stronger partnerships between private and public sector entities. We would welcome increased funding of both public agencies and private chambers to support and enhance business connections and synergies. The Spanish government, for example, was involved in funding all manner of business chambers and educational and cultural outreach as an extension of its nationally coordinated business strategy.

Our third recommendation is to support bilateral and subregional trade agreements. For too long Canada has kept its eggs in the free trade of the Americas basket, even though there appears to be little chance that agreement will progress in the near or even distant future. We encourage the Canadian government to pursue bilateral and subregional trade agreements, as has the United States. Unfortunately, progress on several free trade agreements with Central America, the Andean countries, CARICOM, and the Dominican Republic has been stalled for a number of years.

Brazil came knocking two years ago to explore a free trade agreement with Canada. There are various interpretations of why their entreaty did not progress, but we suggest that the government redouble its efforts with Brazil and MERCOSUR in this respect.

We also believe that while NAFTA has been successful in bolstering trade and investment with Mexico, it has the potential to accomplish more. We support the efforts to deepen relations with Mexico through the expansion of NAFTA, and through the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America, to improve regulatory coordination and cooperation.

Our fourth recommendation is support for foreign investment protection agreements. Canada still lacks foreign investment protection agreements, known as FIPAs, with a number of Latin American countries. We could encourage the government to pursue these as well. We at the CCA are appreciative of the support we receive from the federal government, and we would encourage the government to utilize the knowledge of our members to consult regarding these prospective agreements.

Our fifth and last recommendation is to take advantage of potential with Brazil. Brazil represents 50% of the GDP in South America. Canada is not exploiting the full potential for trade and investment with Brazil, in our opinion. EDC and BCCC have agreed to pursue a joint initiative called the Canada-Brazil Trade Pallet. The Canadian trade pallet initiative will seek to identify the key limitations to developing new business and managing existing trade flows with Brazil. It will also develop a means to deliver knowledge and services to enhance the bilateral economic relationship. This trade pallet would serve as a pilot project to provide information for a large government online trade services model, which could influence existing delivery models such as the virtual trade commissioner service. We hope to count on the government for its support for this important initiative.

In closing, Mr. Chair, the CCA and the BCCC member companies know that Canada must embrace the rapid changes that are taking place in global trade and investment flows. They must capture new markets and forge new partnerships if Canada is to continue to prosper.

Above all, Canada would stand to gain from political leadership at the top that prioritizes its relations in the hemisphere and sends a clear message that Canada has a strong political and economic stake in this hemisphere. The hemisphere wants more Canadian engagement. For a number of reasons, the circumstances are propitious for active re-engagement by Canada.

The committee's examination of these issues is timely. We look forward to the recommendations that emerge from your deliberations. Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We'll go now directly to questioning, and first to the official opposition, the Liberal Party.

Mr. Temelkovski.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much, Mr. Frankel.

We've read that there have been some changes to the Andean group of countries. Some are opting in; some are opting out from time to time. Do you see this as some sort of instability in the area, or has it smoothed out? As you mentioned earlier, there was some instability in the 1990s in the area.

11:20 a.m.

Board Member, International Trade Advisor, Canadian Council for the Americas

Kenneth Frankel

I will answer that.

On the opting out, at this point really what we're talking about is Chavez of Venezuela. Colombia has become more and more stabilized. Peru has become stabilized a bit more under Alan Garcia. Ecuador, obviously, now is a little bit up in the air.

The future of the Andean Pact per se, including Venezuela, is up in the air, although the other Andean countries are still engaged in free trade negotiations, or have signed, with the United States.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Recently I was in Colombia for the FIPA meetings. All of these countries were present and attended the FIPA meetings to further enhance trade within the Americas.

What avenue would you suggest we take? Would you suggest that we deal with each country one on one, or would you suggest it would be more efficient if we dealt with them in terms of trading as a group?

11:20 a.m.

Eduardo Klurfan Vice-Chairman, Canadian Council for the Americas

I believe that dealing one on one on the bilateral agreements is probably the option of choice because of the peculiarities of each of the countries' economies and the level of trade and investment we have with each of those countries.

In some circumstances, this is not an option. In the case, for instance, of MERCOSUR, the member countries had agreed that any negotiation would be on a regional basis. So any negotiation on a treaty agreement with any of the members of MERCOSUR has to be done on the basis of what they call “Four Plus One”.

So in some cases we have no choice. In some cases, if the choice is available, I believe that doing bilateral agreements, the way Mexico and Chile have done with a significant number of countries, is a more conducive way to better serve the interests of both countries.

11:20 a.m.

Board Member, International Trade Advisor, Canadian Council for the Americas

Kenneth Frankel

If I might say so, Peru just signed a free trade agreement with the United States as well, so I think that would be sounding out the Andean bloc as to what their preference was.

I think our main point is, whatever it is, let's start exploring it and having these discussions.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

You also mentioned that support for business facilitation is your number one recommendation. Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about that.

You mentioned in that recommendation that there have been some logistical cutbacks. Maybe you can expand on that for us as well.

11:25 a.m.

Board Member, International Trade Advisor, Canadian Council for the Americas

Kenneth Frankel

There are several programs that have come to my attention, from some of the provincial trade commissioners as well as some of the federal ones. The one that seems to come up constantly--and I don't have the acronym in front of me now--is the one that helped support the SMEs particularly, with logistical support, with how to write bid proposals for bids that are going on in Latin America and elsewhere. I can supply the committee with that acronym later. That's the one that seems to be coming out all the time.

The chronic lament we hear is that these services are doing a good job but they seem to be underfunded and seem to feel they're very underfunded compared to what some of our competitor countries are doing.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

In your opinion, would Canadian businesses be aware of the opportunities that are available within the Andean countries, or what can we do as a government to enhance this?

11:25 a.m.

Vice-Chairman, Canadian Council for the Americas

Eduardo Klurfan

The trade commissioners stationed in the consulates and embassies throughout Latin America have been doing a very good job and continue to do a good job, but there is always the constraint of the resources that they have available. I think that's one of the facilitations that should continue to work.

I believe that part of the knowledge base involves being able to disseminate the opportunities, and that requires a level of funding that should be there. Trade missions are important. The knowledge of the country is not restricted to the economic and business aspect, but also includes the cultural aspects. Outreach is important because it demystifies aspects for small and medium enterprises in Canada, so they can look at those markets and expand in those markets.

There's a general movement towards better understanding and knowledge and also towards helping identify opportunities. The SMEs usually don't have the resources to be able to do market research, and they remain very much tied to only the easier trade south of the border. The opportunities that arise in other markets sometimes are not fully understood, or people are sometimes mystified as to the problems that could be there.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Just to finish, off the top of your head, would you know if Canada has trade commissioners in all of those countries, and if those countries are represented by trade officials in Canada?

11:25 a.m.

Vice-Chairman, Canadian Council for the Americas

Eduardo Klurfan

I believe we do have quite a good coverage of trade commissioners throughout the major countries. Not all the countries have trade commissioners in their delegations here in Canada. They don't necessarily, and sometimes they are also subject to budget constraints. They're not always at full staff in those places.

That's something that we believe is part of expanding the knowledge base and the opportunities, working together on the commercial relationships issue for better understanding and knowledge of the opportunities and of what the synergies are for the different countries to work together.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Temelkovski.

We'll go now to—

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I think Mr. Frankel has something to add.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Go ahead please, Mr. Frankel.

11:25 a.m.

Board Member, International Trade Advisor, Canadian Council for the Americas

Kenneth Frankel

The program I referred to is the PEMD program.