Evidence of meeting #51 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dan Ciuriak  Acting Director and Deputy Chief Economist, Policy Research and Modelling Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Craig Kuntz  Director, International Trade, Statistics Canada
Art Ridgeway  Director, Balance of Payments Branch, Statistics Canada
Anthony Burger  Chief Economist, Office of the Chief Economist, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Raymond Bédard  Director, Partnerships Division, Admissibility Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good morning, everyone.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the House of Commons Standing Committee on International Trade is undertaking a study examining the opportunities and the challenges Canadian businesses face in a number of regions around the world. In particular, the committee is interested in markets where two-way trade and investment flows with Canada may be underdeveloped currently and have the potential for strong future growth. The committee is specifically interested in identifying and removing the obstacles that stand in the way of stronger economic ties with those markets. What can the Government of Canada do to help Canadian businesses take better advantage of trade, investment, and other international business opportunities in these regions?

Today, we will be receiving evidence from Statistics Canada, from the Canada Border Services Agency, and from DFAIT. The purpose of the meeting today is to understand how trade statistics are gathered, analyzed, and used in the context of international trade, especially for us, in planning future trade strategies.

We have today with us, as witnesses: Mr. Craig Kuntz, director of international trade with Statistics Canada; Art Ridgeway, director of balance of payments at Statistics Canada; Raymond Bédard, director of the partnerships division, admissibility branch, with the Canada Border Services Agency; and Anthony Burger, chief economist, office of the chief economist at DFAIT; and Dan Ciuriak....

How do you pronounce your name?

11:05 a.m.

Dan Ciuriak Acting Director and Deputy Chief Economist, Policy Research and Modelling Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

“Chur-ee-yak”.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

“Chur-ee-yak”. Thank you. I should have asked you, and I did meet you earlier.

He's the acting director and deputy chief economist, policy research and modelling division, with DFAIT.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for coming today. I know I'm very much looking forward to your report.

The comment made by one of you at the table, and I won't say who, that this might not be the most thrilling topic, I don't agree with. I'm looking very much forward to your comments today. Nobody else agreed with it either, by the way.

So please, go ahead in the order I presented, starting with Mr. Kuntz.

11:05 a.m.

Craig Kuntz Director, International Trade, Statistics Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Today I'm going to divide my time with my colleague from the balance of payments division. We're going to give you a very brief overview of trade statistics and the balance of payments. What I'm going to do is talk about merchandise trade statistics. I'm going to tell you a bit about what we do and how we do it. Then I'm going to identify some of the quality issues we have with the merchandise trade statistics, and then I'll describe some of the actions we've taken in concert with our colleagues from Canada Border Services Agency in the last few years to address some of those quality issues.

In terms of my program, we have responsibility for producing monthly merchandise trade statistics. We do that on both a customs and a balance of payments basis. We also have price indices that we measure so that we can deflate the trade data. We also maintain what we call the harmonized commodity classification system, which is an internationally agreed-upon classification of merchandise. Our representative on that for Canada is the CBSA. It's a classification that's used widely throughout the world.

I call the other part of my program our “non-core” program. I call it that because it's not part of our core funding. We do a lot of this work on a cost-recovery basis with our policy colleagues. We've built what we call importer and exporter registers; we take information from the merchandise trade, aggregate those data on a company basis, and link it to our business register so that we can talk a bit about the characteristics of the importers and the exporters, the industries they're in, their employment size, etc.

We also produce what we call a world trade analyzer, which is a database we purchase from the United Nations statistical office. It includes the trade data from all of the countries. Then, through an algorithm, we try to reconcile those data, try to better understand the partner trade flows. We basically create a synthetic database of world trade.

The other activity we undertake is reconciliations. We deal with our bilateral partners and try to resolve some of the quality issues that I will mention later. We try to understand what is causing some of the differences between the import and export statistics.

The import statistics are generally viewed to be more accurate than export statistics. That's generally because there's been an interest on the customs side in terms of collecting duties, and lately GST and things like that, which leads our colleagues at Customs to be more focused on the inward flow of goods than on the outward flow of goods. In terms of our data sources, we get data from CBSA on the import side. On the export side, since 1990 we've had a data exchange with the United States: we use U.S. import data that we receive from the U.S. Census Bureau as Canadian exports to the United States, and vice versa; they use Canadian imports as U.S. exports to Canada in their trade statistics program.

The other part that we receive is non-U.S. exports. We have a variety of mechanisms for getting those data. Some of it is directly through CBSA, through paper forms called the B13A Export Declaration. The other program we run is called the computer-automated export declaration, and we do that in partnership with CBSA. They submit the data via computer; the data go jointly to CBSA and Statistics Canada. That's how we get the data.

In terms of some of the quality issues I mentioned, I have a list here. This is not a new list. If I go back to 1926, one of our former chief statisticians wrote a paper called “Canadian Trade Statistics; Imports and Exports: what they are; how to use them”. He identified all of these issues back in 1926 as issues related to the quality of trade statistics. There was a subsequent paper written in 1988 by one of our assistant chief statisticians that again went through errors in foreign trade statistics and proposed the methodology that we use to create what I mentioned earlier--the world trade analyzer database--in terms of doing an algorithmic reconciliation of those data.

The two issues I would like to focus on today are export under-coverage and misallocation of exports.

Export under-coverage refers to exports that are not reported to Canada Border Services Agency, so these are goods that are leaving the country without proper documentation. This is a problem we've been aware of for a long time. It's one of the problems that led to the data exchange with the United States when, in the 1970s, we did a number of trade reconciliations with them. As those differences became more acute, we finally signed a memorandum of understanding with them in 1989 to initiate the exchange of data starting in 1990.

The other issue is misallocated exports, and that is goods that are leaving the country. In this case they could be going through a second country. They may be declared. For instance, they could be goods that are going to the United States that are being cleared for consumption in the United States, but then are subsequently being destined to a third country, be it China or Mexico. This is a different issue for us, because at the aggregate level those trade flows are in our data, but they just aren't in the right country allocation. That's the concern we have with that.

I'll show you a graph, and this is perhaps one of the most egregious examples of the combined effect of these two factors. There is also perhaps some valuation issues that are in here. What we have in the dark blue line on the top is Mexican imports from Canada. On the bottom we have Canadian exports to Mexico, as reported by Statistics Canada. These are the two official trade statistics series, and you can see they diverge quite markedly.

These are measuring theoretically the same transactions, and they should be the same. What happens often is we have goods that are going through the United States, either in transit or they've been cleared for consumption in the United States, that are subsequently exported to Mexico. That's what's causing this problem. There may be markups as well for those goods if they're going through middlemen.

In terms of what we've been doing for the last few years, our colleagues at CBSA have been very cooperative, and they've consulted with us quite a bit. In 2003 they put in what they call administrative monetary penalties, and that's where they can actually fine exporters for not reporting correctly or not reporting at all. They have also put in place new regulations that require exporters to declare their exports prior to the goods leaving the country.

The one exception to that now is where they've started to negotiate with the marine and the air carriers what they call no load MOUs, which require that the carriers verify in advance that they have all the proper documentation, and if they do have all that documentation, then they are allowed to submit, I believe, in some cases up to a day later the transportation documentation to CBSA.

The other area where they have helped us a lot is we've developed jointly this computer-automated export declaration program, and it's become very popular. It's really taken off in the last four to five years. We started originally with this in 1998, but it's really since the implementation of the administrative monetary penalties that it's taken off, and we're in the neighbourhood of about 52,000 registered users of that right now.

With that, I will pass it over to my colleague to talk about the balance of payments basis.

11:15 a.m.

Art Ridgeway Director, Balance of Payments Branch, Statistics Canada

Thank you, and good morning. I'll just take a few minutes to briefly run over the balance of payments program.

The balance of payments program covers the full range of transactions between Canadian residents and residents of the rest of the world. That covers basically everything. Important elements of these transactions are the international trade in goods, which my colleague has just described, but also international trade in services; income flows; cross-border investments; and transactions and financial instruments, including equity and both long-term and short-term debt, which are covered in the balance of payments.

The financial transactions are further grouped into three principal areas, one being foreign direct investment, the second being portfolio investment, and the last one being what we would term “other investment”, which is dominated basically by banking deposits and loans and is basically a reflection of the financial sector.

This data is published on a quarterly basis. As it happens, my fourth quarter estimates for 2006 were released this morning at 8:30, so I've provided copies to the members through the clerk.

That's generally what we do, so I'll just say a few words about our data sources, because ours are somewhat different from those of my colleague.

As you've heard previously, for the merchandise goods, we use a lot of administrative data from other ministries or departments. That's particularly true for merchandise trade. We also use the administrative data, in some part, for travel expenditures and for transportation expenditures. For the vast majority of the rest of the balance of payments, we depend on survey data. This is the major difference on the source of these data from the merchandise exports, which are mostly administrative data.

Primarily, trade in services comes from surveys, and we focus there on commercial or business services. These are services between one business or for businesses in the other country.

In terms of financial transactions, we cover the full range of financial transactions, with a particular emphasis on those by Canadian businesses. On the financial transactions, I should maybe just note that most of the interbank transactions are collected for us by the Bank of Canada, through a cooperative agreement with them, so as to reduce the number of points of data collection.

Let's turn for a moment to talking about some of the challenges we face on these BOP surveys that we use for the survey-related data. One of the first challenges we have is simply the lack of independent indicators on which businesses or households in the country are undertaking cross-border transactions. Whereas for merchandise trade we have an administrative source that tells us who's actually trading internationally, there's no equivalent source for services. I don't have any independent indicator that tells me who's actually trading services, who's buying and selling, or who's transacting large financial transactions either.

Another major concern for us is that business accounting does not necessarily separate out transactions with non-residents from transactions between Canadians. Therefore, what that implies is that if we start asking businesses and households to split their transactions between those with residents and those without other Canadians, this imposes a certain burden, because their records may not have them readily available in that form. That's a major concern we have, because we don't want to inflict more than a necessary burden on the respondents to respond.

It often takes considerable effort by our respondents to be able to split the data into the categories we are asking for. This is particularly true for service inputs. For outputs, they tend to have a better idea of where they're selling their goods, but when they're buying service inputs internationally, they tend to get mixed up with their domestic inputs a lot in their accounting records.

What are other quality initiatives that we've undertaken over the years to try to address some of these issues? First of all, we have an annual Canada–U.S. reconciliation program. This has been going on for over thirty years now, with the cooperation of the United States government's Bureau of Economic Analysis, which is responsible for the balance of payments in the U.S. We reconcile the flows between Canada and the U.S., our largest trading partner, once a year, and we learn from those experiences and we actually now trade data. We use each other's reflection.

I might just pause for a moment and note that Craig mentioned that for the goods trade, the imports are always trusted more than the exports.

For services, it's the exact opposite. Generally, when we ask people on a survey, they have a pretty good idea of where they're selling their services and who their market is because that's important information for the business to understand. But it's less important some of the time to know exactly where your inputs are coming from, so the records often aren't quite so detailed, or they're less willing, or it's less readily available on that side.

In general, we trust the statistics on the export side more than the import side. A key example might be software. Over the years we've found that the data really is different between ourselves and the U.S. So right now we use the export data from the U.S. to improve our import data because it's much more accurate. And it works the other way around. They take our export data on software from Canada to the U.S. as a better measure of imports into the U.S. in that sense.

Other things have been going on. Countries around the world have very similar problems to the ones we have on the survey-based international data. So there have been some efforts to try to regulate this at the international level. One of the first of these initiatives was what is called the coordinated portfolio investment survey, which is now an annual survey that's organized by the IMF. Approximately 70 countries around the world conduct an annual survey simultaneously, and then we share the data.

We focus on what we can measure better ourselves and then try to use the data from the other countries to improve our data, particularly data outside of our own borders, which they can measure better than we can, and then we look at their data and try to improve the estimates for Canada that way. That's already under way.

A similar survey for foreign direct investment is in development right now, with the IMF in the lead again, and we'll be participating in that as it hopefully moves on in the next couple of years.

Finally, we're currently redesigning the trade in services survey that we use. This is the survey focusing mostly on commercial or business services, an area of growing interest. We have a program over the next couple of years to try to redefine the sample process we use for that and to redesign the questionnaires. We'll be doing that in conjunction with our respondents and our clients, such as DFAIT, and others over the next year or two.

With that, I'll turn it back to you for questions.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much for your presentations, gentlemen. We appreciate the rest of you being here to answer questions as well.

Just before we go to that, we have agreed to deal with the subcommittee on agenda report at the end of this meeting. How much time do we need for that?

There was general agreement on most parts of the report, so that should be supported very quickly, I think. There was one issue on which we needed more discussion.

Would we need a half hour, as agreed, or should we go for maybe 20 minutes?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Let's go for half an hour.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

You want to leave the full half hour?

Okay. We will end this meeting, then, at 12:30 to go to that meeting.

We'll start the questioning with Mr. Bains, for seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

I appreciate the presentation, and I did have quite a few questions. I'm glad you took us through this presentation because some of the questions I had were answered, but there are still some outstanding issues.

In your balance of payments you identify some basic challenges with the way we track trade historically. But we've known and we've seen through various presentations over the past few weeks when we were looking at trade policy that trade has evolved substantially over the past few years in terms of becoming more integrated with global supply chains, and this concept of integrated trade that is being pushed forth by the Conference Board of Canada.... So these are various elements now that are coming, and there's a vocabulary that's developing to redefine how trade will be conducted on a going-forward basis.

When Canada makes decisions as a country, data is absolutely critical. Without that, we can't make any decisions, especially when we get into trade agreements, as we discussed, possibly with EFTA, and Korea, and so forth, and especially when we work at the WTO level.

After listening to this presentation, I'm a bit concerned, because when we talk about methodology and trade, Mr. Kuntz, I believe you alluded to a 1926 paper written about it--I wasn't around then--and then in 1988 there was an update on the methodologies.

My question is, do we really need to rethink how we calculate some of the trade metrics that we define in light of these changes, and what changes need to be made? I know you've identified quality concerns and so forth, but I think this goes a little bit above and beyond that because those quality concerns seem to be the traditional trade aspects. Does that make sense? Am I in the right ballpark there?

11:25 a.m.

Director, International Trade, Statistics Canada

Craig Kuntz

To go to the question in terms of whether we should rethink trade data and the way we do it, the administrative data we get from Customs is by far the best data we're going to get.

In the early 1990s, for international merchandise trade, we had a project actually called the alternate data sources project. We looked at surveying importers, surveying exporters, or talking to carriers. The conclusion we derived out of that was that we would never get the detail that we have in terms of the province of origin or even the commodity level detail. It just wouldn't be feasible.

With the Customs data, we have this rich data set. It has its problems, but it's better than anything we could ever collect in terms of detail and information. So that gets at the first part of your question.

On the other part, in terms of maybe improving it, we've been working and negotiating quite a bit with our American colleagues. One of the things we'd like to try to get access to is what is called U.S. in-transit documentation. We've been trying for a number of years, and we've succeeded for very small windows. That's what enables us to talk about under-coverage and put some parameters on the size of it. We can then match that transport documentation with export declarations.

We're doing that now in a marine mode. For the ports of Halifax, Montreal, and Vancouver, we're trying to match the shipping manifests, if you will, with the export declarations, to try to get some sense of what implication or what result comes out of these measures that our colleagues at CBSA have implemented, in terms of improving the quality of the data and reducing the under-coverage.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

In terms of some of the issues in that respect, my understanding is that you're saying this is the best data we're going to get. In light of the limited resources you have, these are the best sources you have to deal with.

My question is more specific in terms of changing how we track trade. As you said, one of the issues that was brought forth was transshipping and the issue that the data might be skewed in British Columbia, for example, or in the Atlantic provinces because they have those portals for transshipping.

How do we get more accuracy in the data to reflect better data in light of some of these challenges?

11:25 a.m.

Director, International Trade, Statistics Canada

Craig Kuntz

We just keep trying to encourage and educate the exporters and really work with them to convince them that this is important.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

But in terms of tools, you alluded to a graph. That's where my concern was. You brought forth that graph and you showed Mexico and Canada, and the gap is actually the exact opposite. For the graph, they should have been identical. Is my understanding more or less correct?

11:25 a.m.

Director, International Trade, Statistics Canada

Craig Kuntz

In theory, it should be identical. This is the same transaction we're talking about.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

In theory, yes, and the exact opposite actually happened. How do we—

11:25 a.m.

Director, International Trade, Statistics Canada

Craig Kuntz

We do reconcile. We've done a number of reconciliations with Mexico, and I think we understand some of the differences that are there. The flip side is that we aren't going to be able to change the monthly trade statistics to reflect those differences on an ongoing basis.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Then on our data vis-à-vis the other countries, how do we compare to other countries? That's another key component as well. We have a way of tracking our data and making sure it's as accurate as possible by relying on the best sources possible. My question is, are the same levels of scrutiny and quality followed by other countries?

11:30 a.m.

Director, International Trade, Statistics Canada

Craig Kuntz

Generally, there's a—

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

I know we have agreements and so forth.

11:30 a.m.

Director, International Trade, Statistics Canada

Craig Kuntz

There are UN guidelines on the compilation of trade statistics, and internationally they are followed pretty much universally. Trade data sources are generally administrative data. The one exception might be within the European Union. For the intra-European Union trade data, because they've gotten rid of the borders, they're now relying on their value-added tax. From what I understand, though, that data is not of better quality.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

So quality has never been an issue in terms of the guidelines being followed by other countries, in your experience.

What I'm trying to get at is that we scrutinize our data and want to make it as accurate as possible, but we're always being compared to other countries. We have data that's being viewed vis-à-vis other countries. In terms of quality and guidelines, though, my concern or my impression is that other countries might not be as rigid in following their guidelines in terms of how accurate we have been in following our own guidelines vis-à-vis the United Nations agreements and so forth.

Have you experienced any of those concerns? Have they been brought forth at any level?

11:30 a.m.

Director, International Trade, Statistics Canada

Craig Kuntz

I think the concerns I've articulated today really are shared around the world in terms of the quality issues. There are papers that have been written in the United States and there was a book in the 1950s that addressed these issues. They're internationally recognized there. We all struggle with them.

In many respects we've been complimented on the actions we have taken in terms of the international forum. We meet annually through the OECD with our colleagues, and they're very interested in some of the measures we do to try to improve trade statistics.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

In our methodologies that we--

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Bains, it must be a very short closing question.

Are you finished?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Yes, that's fine.