International Trade Committee on April 14th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Good afternoon. We're prepared to begin our 25th meeting of this session of the Standing Committee on International Trade.

We are going to continue our study of the status of free trade agreements and ongoing negotiations between Canada and Colombia, the focus being on how environmental impacts and human rights concerns are being addressed.

Because we expect there will be a third language involved today, we're going to change our translation service. We will have simultaneous English, French, and Spanish delivered on the little devices you have been presented with.

I have the honour to welcome His Excellency Jaime Giron Duarte, from Colombia. It's our great pleasure to have you here today. I appreciate your accepting our invitation to meet with our committee today.

The format will simply be that I will ask His Excellency for opening remarks, with a general emphasis on the Canada-Colombia free trade agreement. Then we will move to questions of the committee members. We will try to keep the first round to seven minutes for each participant; that would be seven minutes for the question and answer.

We're going to have two sections today, and they're probably going to run about 45 minutes each, so we'll try to keep to the time. If any member wishes to share his time, he might indicate that to the chair at the outset of the questioning.

Without further delay, I'm going to ask His Excellency if he would begin.

[Jaime Giron Duarte, Ambassador of the Republic of Colombia to Canada]

Thank you very much, and good afternoon to all of you.

Above all, I would like to convey to the members of this standing committee my thanks for the invitation to speak this afternoon about Colombia and about aspirations to conclude a free trade agreement with Canada. In fact, I would like to offer a presentation, if you will allow me to, in order to give you the context of our current situation in Colombia. After that, I would be more than happy to proceed with the procedure you suggested for this afternoon, if this is acceptable to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Carry on. Thank you.

[Jaime Giron Duarte]

Very well.

Once again, thank you very much.

Because the negotiation of the text of the free trade agreement between Colombia and Canada has not yet been finalized, I'm not authorized to refer to the specific aspects of the text. But I would like to explain to you the reasons that will justify our commitment, in relation to the work that's being carried out by the negotiators of both countries.

For Colombia, this sort of agreement is very important. My country still suffers violence, which began four decades ago as a result of illegal armed groups that financed their activities through kidnappings and drug trafficking. That situation generated poverty. It displaced the civilian population. It violated human rights. It produced corruption and impunity.

All these situations could have become worse, and we recognize it today as an absence of the state in a great part of our territory, of our country. In 2002, when the current president, Alvaro Uribe, took office, there was not one single policeman in 169 of the Colombian municipalities. It was clear that a comprehensive strategy was required to solve this, to attend to the situation.

Colombians were demanding the policy that is currently being enforced by this administration--specifically, the democratic security policy. This supports itself on three pillars: security; social programs to improve the quality of life of the population; and sound economic policies to guarantee fiscal sustainability. All of this is geared towards recovering the trust of Colombians in their own institutions, as well as the trust of international and national investors, due to the great opportunities offered by Colombia. Finally, it's aimed at generating quality employment and guaranteeing sustainable economic growth.

Five years later, results show a completely different Colombia, with greater security and with economic and social development that has never been seen before. General violence was reduced by 40%, murders were reduced by 50%, kidnappings diminished by 90%, and attacks on the economic infrastructure of our country diminished by about 61%.

Peace initiatives promoted by the government have allowed for the demobilization of close to 33,000 members of the so-called United Self-Defence Forces of Colombia. This is the most well-known group in Colombia. It's also known as the paramilitaries.

Similarly, we demobilized over 12,000 members of the guerrillas, including the FARC, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, as well as the National Liberation Army, the ELN.

In terms of investments, in 2002 it was up to 15%. It went up to 19%, 21%, 24%, and last year it reached 27.8%. In January of this year, Colombia received $1.1 billion as direct foreign investment. Economic growth over the past five years has amounted to, on average, 5.3%. Last year it amounted to 7.6%.

The millennium development objectives were incorporated into the national development plan for the period of 2006-2010. This means that social investment--which reaches 56% of the investment resources of the country--will benefit particularly the groups in regions that are most backwards within our country.

Among the results that we've already had, I would like to underscore the following:

Last year we closed with an unemployment rate close to 11%. Our purpose is to bring it down to between 7% and 8% by the time the current administration completes its mandate in 2010.

Extreme poverty, with a baseline of 21.6% in 2002, at the end of 2006 was about 12%. We want to bring it down to about 8% by 2010.

Basic education coverage, which in 1999 was 80%, reached 92% in 2006, with an investment of $16.6 billion between now and 2010.

In terms of health, we hope to have universal coverage by 2009. This way financial barriers that would have limited access to services will be eliminated and comprehensive coverage will be guaranteed to confront health contingencies among the population.

However, it is overcoming rural poverty where we face the greatest challenges. We must develop the capacity among small farmers to generate sufficient income from the production of products that is also sustainable. It also requires technical assistance and business development and employment support. We also require the support from the markets.

Colombia is also progressing considerably in terms of ensuring sustainability in the environment. In recent years we have reforested 30,000 hectares. Over one million hectares have been introduced into the national natural parks system, for a total cumulative figure of over eleven million hectares.

In 2006 Colombia was able to reduce, by 44%, the total of the substances that deplete the ozone layer. We hope to reach zero tonnes by 2010.

The above is proof of our achievements. It's a positive result of which we're proud. We believe we are going in the right direction. However, we are aware of the complexity and the magnitude of the work that remains to be done.

We must consolidate this progress in order to ensure growth rates above 8%. According to our estimates, these are the figures that will allow us to proceed with the structural changes required by the country to generate quality employment for Colombians leaving the ranks of violent groups and reinserting themselves among civil society and gear agricultural activities toward legal crops, thereby allowing these people to return to their places of origin.

This is where free trade agreements are particularly important for Colombia. President Uribe recently said that the government wanted it and the country needed it.

The reaffirmation of the trust of investors in Colombia and the generation of quality employment is required. This is very true. When exports are reactivated as a result of investments, then quality employment comes about. There's also greater social security. This is a way of building a nation.

Free trade agreements go beyond open-market policies; they strengthen democracy, make relations between countries deeper, and they bring greater security for all. They also create opportunities to propel and strengthen environmental and labour policies, improve the enforcement of these policies, and provide for greater accountability.

I can tell you that while negotiating the text, our two countries have agreed to include two parallel instruments that are linked, one linked to labour issues, and the other one to environmental issues. Basically, what we are seeking is to ensure that the desire to stimulate commerce and trade and investment will not go against the labour and environmental standards in both nations. Colombia has a long democratic tradition and wants a world based on freedom, on the rule of law, and on respect for human rights, as well as free and just trade. The process to reaffirm democracy and the interest we have in strengthening our institutions are reflected in the free trade agreements. This is a complement, and we believe there is a relationship between peace, democracy, and development. Each of these concepts is indispensable to every other factor.

We have heard very respectable people express their concern about human rights in Colombia. Particularly, they have spoken against violence against trade union leaders, and we do share their concerns. The Colombian government is working with determination in this regard and in every aspect that affects the fundamental freedoms and the rights of our citizens, and it is very clear that we're also doing this on behalf of our workers. Threats and the killing of trade union leaders is just one part of the violence that has filled the Colombian population with desolation and sadness over the past four decades. The 200 trade unionists who were murdered in 2002 were among the 32,000 murders committed in Colombia that year.

As I was saying at the beginning of my presentation, the rate of murder in general was reduced by 50%, and the killings of trade unionists were reduced by 70%. It is still a very high number, but the reduction was possible because measures were reinforced and the protection plan was reinforced for parts of the population that were under risk.

[Technical difficulties--Editor]

The reduction in violence was also the result of the decision of government to fight against impunity. The government introduced judicial reform in Colombia, but additionally, they created a special sub-unit, the office of the national solicitor general, with a larger professional team that is dedicated exclusively to the investigation of cases of violence against trade unionists. Our constitution and our legislation give to workers rights and benefits that go above international standards.

Colombia is a founding nation of the ILO. It has undertaken commitments to protect labour rights as stated and defined in the Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work. Colombia has signed and has implemented 60 conventions at the ILO, including all those conventions that refer to fundamental labour rights. The ILO standards have been introduced into our own constitution and our legislation; therefore, any violation of these conventions constitutes a violation of Colombian law.

Mr. Chairman and members of the standing committee, the current situation in Colombia is that of a country in the middle of a process. The violence that affects us, although greatly reduced, hasn't come to an end.

The complex problems still present require that we recover our security. They also require that our people recover, including all the people who joined rebel groups and who produced illegal crops to subsist. Today they want to return to society and carry out activity that will bring them into a position of legality. We do not want conflict. We want a democratic end to conflict, and we want to do this by improving the social and economic situation of the Colombian people.

We have a vision for our country that is based on security from the point of view of democracy. We want to build social cohesion from the point of view of the liberties afforded to our people, and we want to implement a faster social development strategy that will make us internationally competitively balanced on a regional level and will allow us to live in peace. We require the understanding of the international community, especially understanding from friendly countries such as Canada, so that we can complete the process that we have brought about and that is already giving us its fruits.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you very much, Your Excellency.

That was very encouraging, and it's very impressive progress that you have made. I take your last point particularly, that of understanding. We in this committee have taken quite an interest. You'll find the members have many questions for you, because we do have so many different opinions and points of view and reports that have caused us to want to see first-hand, as you know, to the extent that we can on a short visit to Bogota next month. I want to thank you for your presentation today and for the strong support you have for strengthening the democracy in your country, for your attention to the labour and environmental concerns that many at this table share, but also for the rule of law and the respect for human rights.

Before we begin with the first questioner, I want to thank you and your offices and your government for the assistance you've already provided us as a committee and our clerk in preparing the visit of the committee to Colombia.

With that, I would like to call upon the representative of the Liberal Party, Mr. Bains, to begin.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I too want to echo the comments of the chair and thank you very much, Your Excellency, for coming here before us in committee to talk about the potential free trade agreement with Colombia.

As you know, this particular committee has come up with a study on Colombia because of, I believe, a lot of feedback that we received from grassroots, from many of my constituents and many organizations. Even when I posed a question on my website, I received the greatest number of e-mails and hits on this particular issue, which is free trade with Colombia. So it showed me that many people are watching this potential free trade agreement between Canada and Colombia and that it is top of mind to many people.

In your remarks, Your Excellency, you very much alluded to the notion of the importance of this free trade agreement between Canada and Colombia. I wanted to get a clarification. You mentioned that you don't want to comment on the timing of the free trade agreement. But do you have any sense of, from your perspective, Colombia's perspective, how close you might be to signing this? We get indication from time to time that this agreement is in the final stages of being signed. Could you provide any clarification on that front?

[Jaime Giron Duarte]

Thank you.

The question you have asked is in fact the same question we ask ourselves every day.

As you know, the negotiations of this agreement began in July of last year. They came about as a result of the interest shown by the Andean countries in signing a free trade agreement with Canada. There were political changes in Latin America. This led to some countries in the Andean community not maintaining their interest in agreements of this sort.

After consultations with those who had been invited, we initiated negotiations between Peru, Canada, and Colombia. The negotiations were carried out. So far, five rounds have been held with Colombia. With Peru, the agreement was concluded after four rounds. They completed the negotiations in December of last year. We are still maintaining contacts. We haven't established a date for the next round, but possibly it will be in May. There are sensitive issues that are of interest to both countries.

The negotiations are being held very professionally. The process is very demanding. Once the text is concluded, the result will be satisfactory for both parties. The objective that we've proposed is to conclude negotiations by the end of this semester, if possible. It all depends, of course, on how close we'll be, regarding all the issues still at hand.

In Colombia, negotiations are held as transparently as possible. All delegations are accompanied by a group of Colombian investors and businesses. They require a report from government at the end of each session, and they ask for any other information they might need.

In part, this probably lengthens the negotiations. That is why we might not know exactly when they're going to be concluded. But we do believe they will be concluded at the end of this semester. By then, Colombia expects to conclude negotiations with EFTA countries.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thank you very much, Excellency.

You mentioned at length, and this is also the scope of our study, human rights and the environmental concerns that have been raised with this potential free trade agreement between both countries, and you spoke to the fact that you are very much trying to address these issues.

With all due respect, on the human rights side of it there are alarming numbers that we read about and hear on the news with respect to trade union activists. For example, in 2006 a total of 78 Colombian trade unionists were murdered. That's a staggering number, and that's something that has been brought not only to my attention but to the attention of all committee members, I believe.

There is legitimate concern that these issues need to be addressed, so I want to get clarification from you, Your Excellency, of how strongly you think the human rights aspect and the environmental aspect should be incorporated in the agreement. Do you think they should be central to the free trade agreement? Trade is important, of course, but obviously these other issues are very prevalent and top of mind to many people, so we feel they go hand in hand.

The feedback we get from our own government here in Canada, for example, on this free trade agreement is that free trade will help improve the human rights situation. So we feel the only way that legitimately can be addressed, aside from the domestic initiatives you're taking, is through a free trade agreement that will be part of the central agreement, as opposed to a side agreement.

I wanted to get your thoughts on that.

[Jaime Giron Duarte]

[Witness speaks in Spanish]

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Excuse me, we're not getting the translation.

I'm sorry, Your Excellency. Could you begin again, please? Thank you.

[Jaime Giron Duarte]

As I was saying, during Prime Minister Harper's visit to Colombia last year, during the meeting held with President Uribe he was very clear when he expressed that it is the wish of the Canadian government to support the efforts made by Colombia with a view to recovering its state of security and above all to guaranteeing human rights and fundamental freedoms in Colombia. Prime Minister Harper was very clear when he told the president that he understood that the problem in Colombia was very complex and there was no solution that could be implemented from one day to another, but that the Canadian people and the government looked upon the situation he just pointed out with great concern--the high figures in terms of murders, kidnappings. All of that affects the lives of Colombians. I can tell you that there are whole generations like mine who have not known one single day of peace.

In view of this, President Uribe offered to the Prime Minister, to assuage the concerns--this doesn't mean that Colombia will not take care of these problems of human rights—that he was willing to include an additional chapter that would be aimed at strengthening the commitment already undertaken by Colombia to promote fundamental freedoms. I believe that the negotiation of this parallel instrument reflects the concern of Canada in relation to human rights in Colombia, but it also acknowledges the fact that Colombia has respected human rights.

The figures you mentioned are right. The government figures are different from those of organizations that defend human rights or other organizations that deal with this issue. They vary depending on the criteria used to calculate them. But they're no doubt high figures, as a result of 40 years of violence. Don't think that the issue of human rights is a pleasant issue when we know that today there are people who would like to solve their problems, problems that go back 20 or 30 years, and they expect a satisfactory solution from the government. What the government has done is to fight against impunity in order to establish the truth in every case and to open up a space for justice to be done and reparations to be made.

In this regard we believe that the affirmation of the additional commitment of Colombia to respect human rights and to re-establish human rights wherever they have been violated will come about as a result of this instrument, which, as I said, is a parallel instrument but is an integral part of the free trade agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Your Excellency.

We'll move on now to the Bloc. Monsieur Cardin.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

I am going to share my time with my colleague Guy André.

Good afternoon and welcome, Ambassador.

Clearly, a free-trade agreement is negotiated so that both parties derive economic benefits from the potential trade. We have examined free-trade agreements where, before ratification, it is not always easy to see the big picture of the benefits to be gained and the losses that we are prepared to accept.

However, this one contains a significant additional element, that of human rights. We have to come to terms with this element, to try not to legitimize some things indirectly and to see how we can improve the situation.

When he appeared in December 2007, Minister Emerson told us that the human rights situation in Columbia was improving thanks to President Uribe's leadership. The president has been in office since 2002 and his second term will expire in 2010.

Can you tell me what specifically has been done in human rights and what objectives are being pursued?

[Jaime Giron Duarte]

Thank you very much for the question.

In fact, I'm glad those were the thoughts that came to Mr. Emerson's mind after visiting Colombia. The situation is not resolved, but what satisfies us is the progress made.

Now, you've asked us how have we progressed. I can tell you that concern for human rights has been ongoing or constant. I would like to reiterate that we're still a country undergoing a serious conflict, but for a long time we have tried to improve the situation. As a cooperative mechanism, the United Nations Human Rights Commission has rapporteurs who work according to their speciality and visit places where serious violations of human rights have occurred. We have always thought the issue of human rights is something that has to have priority over everything else. That's why we have maintained an open attitude, an open approach, and have allowed international monitoring for very many years at this point in time.

As the reports presented by the rapporteurs were prepared in a relatively short period of time, they might not have got to the crux of the problem of the Colombian situation, which, although it might been seen as similar to the situation in other countries, is really very different. So Colombia asked the UN Human Rights Commission—and maybe it's the only country that has so far done so—to allow somebody from our country to accompany these missions, who would be able to understand the situation and propose viable solutions. The commission accepted this, and with the assistance of several countries, but mostly financed by Colombia, we established an office in 1995 during the term of President Uribe. The mandate has been renewed, and has to be renewed every year. The Government of Colombia in fact has been renewing these groups for four-year periods. This office, an observer office, allows us to adopt measures.

What are the measures that have been adopted? Firstly, violations against human rights and the presentation of these cases before international human rights commissions are the result of the impunity. The president agreed to judicial reform. We went from an inquiry system to a verbal accusatory system, and this allowed us to progress at a rate of 75%. The justice area has been strengthened. A lot remains to be done, mainly with funds and professional resources.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Excuse me, but the clock is ticking. I am sharing my time with my colleague and I would like him to have some time left. So I will give him the floor. But I did understand, and I thank you.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Duarte, thank you for being here and for explaining to us some of the issues faced by your country, Colombia.

You indicated that crime against trade unionists has dropped by 70%. Our statistics tell us that, at the same time, the rate of union membership has gone from 15% to 3%. This is a significant drop in union membership.

Is the reduction in crimes against union members linked to the fact that Colombia presently has fewer union members?

But other information tells us that the present government has solved less than 3% of the crimes against trade unionists. About 400 union members have been killed since Mr. Uribe came to power and about seven people have been convicted after murder attempts.

How do you account for those figures? I ask the question because I want to know if it is because of a weakness in security.

[Jaime Giron Duarte]

According to our information, the number of trade unions in Colombia has increased over the past years. I don't have the yearly percentages, but the information for 2007 tells me that there are one million unionized workers in Colombia and 7,650 trade unions. The administrative measures taken by government have reduced the registration process from fifteen days to five days. The government has also adopted measures whereby after those days have elapsed, and if no answer has been given to the applicant in favour or against, it will be deemed approved and therefore the trade union can be established.

In relation to the number of cases, the number of violent incidents against trade unionists is quite high. This has concerned the ILO for the past 20 years. We have 1,262 cases that have been presented to the ILO and that are also being heard by the Colombian courts.

There is another measure I wanted to explain to Mr. Cardin. The government established a prosecutor's office with the financial resources and investigative capacity to address 187 of the cases within that package. Those were selected as priority cases by a tripartite group that included government, workers, and employers. The results so far indicate that of those 187 cases, a sub-unit of the prosecutor's office has been able to conclude only 38, with judgments and sentences issued. This contrasts greatly with the situation up until 2005, when only 47 cases had been concluded and sentences handed down. What encourages us is that we have gone from 47 judgments in four or five years to 38 in just one year. And with speedier legal processes, the figures will be reduced substantially.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Monsieur André. I'm sorry we had to rush you there a bit.

We'll move now to the New Democratic Party. Welcome back, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for coming, Your Excellency.

I want to talk a bit about what's happened in the last month with regard to trade unions in Colombia. Carmen Carvajal, from an association of teachers, was murdered in Ocaña. Leonidas Gómez, from the national bank union, disappeared and was subsequently found dead in his apartment. Gildardo Alzate was murdered by a sharp weapon in the entraceway of his residence. He was from a centre for teacher research. Carlos Burbano was killed as well. He was from the national association of hospitals. Most recently, Adolfo Montes was murdered in his hometown, in his house.

The point I'm trying to make is that this is the recent past from just this last month. Those individuals represented unions that are seen as being much more from civil society than just the labour movement.

What is your response to the fact that even the leadership of civil society labour unions are not safe in Colombia?

[Jaime Giron Duarte]

Thank you very much.

I would like to have information on particular cases, specific cases as you just mentioned now. I don't have that information, so I've taken down the names that you've mentioned, and I promise I will look into this with government, and we will report on the current status. But I cannot address each one of the cases.

Generally I can tell you that these cases have been publicized, and I also remember seeing the names because of the number of communications that have arrived in my office expressing concern about the status of these people. One of them was with the bank workers union. The first thing I could obtain from Colombia was that they were looking into it, but initially it seemed that his murder was not in relation to his work as a trade unionist. Obviously we're looking into this. We're verifying this information.

What do we think about the fact that the life of a trade unionist isn't guaranteed? Well, this is no justification, but considering the situation of violence that has been prevalent in Colombia, there are several groups, aside from trade unionists, who feel vulnerable. We have teachers, aldermen, and municipal councillors, and also politicians. In other words, there are many people who are in this situation who are under threat. This is why we created the plan for the protection of people under risk in 1999. Progress has been made. A program that started with 99 people now includes 2,000 members of the trade unions. It's probably the second-largest group after city aldermen to be in this protection program.

Our only satisfaction is that none of the trade union leaders who are protected by the program has been murdered so far. But as I said, I don't have information on these particular cases. I will look into it, and I will convey the information to you.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I appreciate that. My concern in particular is the fact that once again these are progressive civil society organizations and teachers and so forth, and hospital workers. They're not in types of work that are normally confrontational, in which, for example, there might be environmental or other types of labour practices by companies that would lead to a conflict within the base of workers in their place of employment.

I know you've presented some information on some cases that have been closed, but we've also been presented with some information that despite the fact that the current regime has been in power for so long, very few people are coming to criminal justice with regard to any murders or assassinations, especially of trade unionists.

Can you give a recent example of someone who was brought to justice and what type of sentence they received for a murder or assassination of a union leader?

[Jaime Giron Duarte]

No, I wouldn't be able to do that because I don't have that information with me. To speak about specific cases, we would have to know the true reasons behind the murder, but also we would have to be aware of the procedures carried out. I have general information but no specific information related to cases.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Then what would be the crime and penalty--or maybe you can provide that to the committee--of the 38 concluded cases that your justice system has gone through? Would you be able to provide that information to the committee?

[Jaime Giron Duarte]

I would say that the results achieved in 2007 have been significant, with 38 convictions for the murder of trade union members last year.

The result compares impressively with a total of 45 convictions in the prior five years, and only one from 1991 to 2001.

Since the sub-unit began operation in February 2007, the following results have been achieved as of February 20, 2008: 702 investigations have been opened to establish facts and suspects. Suspects have been identified in 239 cases, with 24 cases ready to be referred to court for trial; 88 suspects have been arrested and placed in preventive detention; and 40 cases have resulted in the conviction of a total of 64 criminal defendants.

Unfortunately they don't say what type of sentence they have....

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Maybe that can be followed up, though. I don't expect you to have that data here today. I just wanted to substantiate the process and see what types of convictions individuals are receiving for that.

Another question I have is with regard to the committee's trip to Bogota. Is it possible for the committee to have meetings with some of the trade unions and to go to places they select--maybe outside of Bogota--to be able to hear from witnesses and individuals who normally wouldn't have access to Bogota or who would feel it would be better to get that testimony elsewhere? It's similar to when you have those who are interested in economic development or investing in Colombia getting a chance to see more than just Bogota. Would that be available to the committee?