International Trade Committee on June 2nd, 2008

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

And how many workers would that impact?

[Daniel L. Lafrance]

It depends on which one...in Vancouver there are about 160 full-time employees. In Taber, Alberta, there are about 100 full-time employees, plus another 200 part-time employees during campaign season, during the slicing season.

And let's not forget 350 beet growers--not only our employees but the economy of southern Alberta itself.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

Ms. George, in the letter that Mr. Beatty provided us, a brief introduction of roughly a page and a bit, there were nine companies listed. Are these the only nine companies that are supporting your position on this?

[Shirley-Ann George]

No. Not to be confused, there were nine companies that are active players in Colombia, and they're the ones that were signing on. The Canadian Chamber of Commerce is making this position on behalf of all our members.

Did you want to add anything, Brian?

[Brian Zeiler-Kligman, Policy Analyst, International, Canadian Chamber of Commerce]

Mostly that's a reflection of timing, just trying to get the letter in to the committee within adequate time and connecting with our members.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

As you know, we've visited Colombia, and certainly the change of the political scene has impacted the security in Colombia. But still, you say murders are reduced by 40% and kidnappings by 80%.

First, where did you get your figures? Secondly, that's 40% of I don't know what, but there are still a significant number of murders and kidnappings.

We were very impressed by the Canadian companies who appeared before our committee, but are you prepared to advocate that Canadian business locate in Colombia with the concerns about security, the environmental concerns, and the human rights concerns?

[Shirley-Ann George]

Canadian companies are operating in Colombia today.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

And would you encourage more to operate there? That's the question.

[Shirley-Ann George]

As for all developing countries, every company needs to assess whether or not it's a good idea. You're right that Colombia is still a violent place. It can be a dangerous place, and that's part of the assessment that companies make.

Canada is a world leader in the extractive sector, and those are generally the companies that go into these types of markets early. The Canadian mining industry is the largest foreign industry in that sector in Colombia.

So yes, there are companies that are going there, and there are more that are looking at it. They are generally sophisticated companies that understand the dangers and how to mitigate them. It's not a market for everybody, although it's important to understand that much of the unfortunate violence that takes place in Colombia is very targeted to specific sectors.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

You've heard the testimony of the Canadian Sugar Institute, that it's going to be a little difficult to operate in that sector if we enter into this agreement. How would you recommend we deal with the Sugar Institute and their companies?

[Shirley-Ann George]

In every trade agreement, both sides have winners and losers, people who gain significantly and those who are hurt, and it's very important that our negotiators work to mitigate any sort of damage, basically allowing for the phasing out of any kind of tariff, if that's needed in the sector. It's also very important for Canada to take a step back and ask itself the question, “Where is our trade assistance package? What are we doing to help companies that need to make some adjustments?”

Sometimes companies just need to put in place highly sophisticated new machinery, and that allows them enough to compete in these markets.

There are other things that need to be done, and sometimes it's more training. There are lots of things.

Unlike, for example, the United States, which has the trade adjustment assistance package, Canada is missing that. So that's part of the challenge we face.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Monsieur Cardin.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome, and thank you for being here.

We have excellent representation this afternoon. We have a group that represents a host of entrepreneurs doing business or making investments overseas, as well as one specific company that is experiencing a very unique situation that raises real fears.

But we have decided on a free trade agreement for the Canadian and Quebec economy as a whole, that is, for everyone who wants to business elsewhere. We have businesspeople who want to sell and to trade with as few tariffs and barriers as possible. Then we have investors who want to set up operations in foreign countries in order to benefit from low wages in industries that can be very competitive.

You have said that it is the government's role to ensure that the free trade agreement is a positive one in all its aspects, not only for business people, but also for employment in Canada. In fact, many people are afraid that they are going to lose their jobs. The employer fears for his company while the employees fear for their jobs.

The situation in Colombia is unique. Representatives from the organization called Lawyers Without Borders explained it to us. Despite improvements in absolute figures and percentages, it is still a fact that there are a good number of human rights and labour violations.

Overall, you seemed to be saying that you were prepared to accept arrangements to ensure that human rights and the Labour Code were respected. But would you go as far as to say that, if companies established there violated human rights, the Labour Code or workers' rights, Canada would be able to take action against companies representing us in foreign countries and doing so dishonourably?

[Brian Zeiler-Kligman]

We already have standards in place for Canadian companies that don't obey the laws. We certainly support that any companies that aren't operating within the full scope of the law should be assessed in that way and face the repercussions.

As we have already said, Canadian companies are global leaders in the areas of environmental, labour, and other corporate social responsibility practices. Their presence in the Colombian market has already helped them make improvements to the labour situation and the human rights situation in Colombia. Certainly concluding a free trade agreement between Canada and Colombia will enable more Canadian companies to get established in Colombia and help the situation even more.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

I am turning the floor over to Mr. André.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Welcome to the committee, everyone.

Ms. George, you indicated that free trade will improve human rights and workers' rights in a country. You spoke at length about the improvement of the situation in Colombia in the past several years. In the statistics that I have read, there has been some improvement, but in 2008, 28 trade unionists have been murdered.

Le Monde diplomatique is an internationally recognized French publication. In the May edition, we read that “...the Colombian government caused a (minor) surprise by agreeing to the extradition of fourteen former leaders of paramilitary groups to the United States". Those people were put in prison and called to testify about the various operations they led. Their latest statements somewhat increased the pressure in the country. That is why they were sent off to the United States with American cooperation. Paramilitary groups have been linked to Juan Manuel Santos, Minister of Defence, Francisco Santos Calderón, the country's Vice-President, whom we have had here at the committee, and President Alvaro Uribe.

Le Monde diplomatique is no local daily or weekly. It is an international journal. Those are the facts, sir, and I can show you the article I am referring to.

[An Hon. Member]

It is left-wing.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

No, it is very scientific in its arguments. As I read the article, I wonder how a free-trade agreement can really help to improve the situation of workers and trade unionists, when the goal of such agreements is often purely economic. The talk of investment, of eliminating tariff barriers, and of letting companies do more work in other countries is all well and good, but how are we really going to improve the situation? We still have a lot of concerns about human rights and workers' rights in Colombia.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

That's six minutes, Monsieur André.

I'm sorry, you're going to have to limit your answer to one minute.

[Shirley-Ann George]

You bring up a very important point. The free trade agreement is indeed an economic agreement; it is not the solution to all the problems, and it will never be the solution to all the problems. Part of what we need to do is look at what else we can do beyond a free trade agreement. How do we help build the capacity in Colombia so that they have more and better judges and more capacity to prosecute?

There are many other things we can do and should be doing, and if we are a free trade partner with Colombia, that will give us additional credibility to go in and help build their capacity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for each of you. I'll run through them, and hopefully you can respond.

Mr. Zeiler-Kligman, you mentioned there should be prosecution of companies that are breaking the law. We heard evidence in Colombia that companies like Coca-Cola, Chiquita, and Nestlé essentially have ties with paramilitaries, resulting in the deaths of labour activists. The Colombian government has refused to investigate any of those companies. Would you not agree that's something the Colombian government should be following up on? Shouldn't they be investigating those very serious allegations?

Ms. George, I would like to come back to your point around the FTA. You said the United States had signed ten FTAs, but as you well know, the Colombia agreement has been completely stopped in the U.S. Congress. In fact, for the first time, the U.S. Congress has refused to fast-track authorization on the Colombia free trade agreement because of all the concerns around human rights and labour rights. Essentially, as Mr. André indicated, the number of labour activists who have been murdered has gone up this year. The number of summary executions by the Colombian military has gone up. There are very serious allegations about the Colombian government manipulating statistics such as the unemployment rate--simply redefining it in an effort to show that there have been improvements in dealing with poverty and improvements in employment.

My question is quite simple: when the U.S. is essentially stopping this agreement, why would Canada proceed, when the same concerns have been expressed here in Canada?

Ms. Marsden, you raised issues around protecting and supporting the Canadian sugar industry. I want to know whether there have been any consultations with the sugar industry around Canada and Colombia. Do you feel that protections in the agreement are sufficient? I gather not, but I want to hear you clearly reply on that.

Mr. Lafrance, I want to know what the potential job loss would be. You talked about the structure of the Canadian sugar industry now. What do you think would be the number of jobs that could potentially be lost if we run through this agreement?

[Brian Zeiler-Kligman]

I'll start this off.

Certainly we believe that violations of the law should be investigated. We'll note that the Colombian government has already actually introduced special measures specifically to look at allegations of violence against union members, and these measures are on an expedited track within the Colombian justice system. We also have to be cognizant of the fact that this is a system that is starting to emerge after many years of turmoil and is getting itself sorted out. It's not going to be done overnight; there are, as has been acknowledged, a large number of cases that have to be investigated, although what's key is that they are being investigated, so--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I'm sorry, but in this case they are not. The government is refusing to investigate the links between the paramilitaries and the companies. My question was very simple: do you believe they should be investigating those allegations?

[Brian Zeiler-Kligman]

I'm not familiar with the particular allegations you are suggesting, so I cannot comment on those specific instances. Certainly we are aware that the Colombian government is taking special measures to investigate these other allegations that have been put forward and to ensure that there are both serious investigations and serious convictions on these issues.

I'll also note that none of the companies you mentioned are Canadian companies, and that even the Panamanian ambassador, when speaking to this very committee, spoke about the fact that Canadian companies are seen as global leaders in responsible business practices.