One of the interesting things about the shipbuilding industry—and this is where we're completely different from anybody at this table—is that we're not in the WTO. We have no rules. There are no WTO rules that really apply to us. We are the last of the wild west shootouts. Countries and governments can do any darn thing they want; there are no real regulations.
The OECD tried to regulate the shipbuilding industry and failed. The European Union is trying to regulate their portion of it, but it has failed. If you look at China, Vietnam, Korea, and Japan, when they started, they were right out of the wild west. The guy who puts the most effort into it and the country that throws the most money at it are the winners. So that's the situation we find ourselves in.
What we find very difficult is that these people have all gone through that, they've matured, they now have these dynamite industries, and we're still sitting here wondering how we deal with that. When we get to a bilateral free trade negotiation, there is nothing in Korea for Canada's shipbuilding industry. There's lots in Canada for Korea's shipbuilding industry, but they'll never let us in the door. We just will not be able to get in the door. No one will expect us.... That's a non-tariff barrier, but there are a million ways of doing that.
Subsidization. Everybody says they don't subsidize. Korea doesn't subsidize, Norway doesn't subsidize. That is really a lot of malarkey. As you quite rightly pointed out, all the Asian countries have pools of cash from which they give industries below market rate loans so that...and those loans are made politically, nothing to do with the risk assessment of the business. I can show you that, if you want all the paper.