Evidence of meeting #32 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was market.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sandra Marsden  President, Canadian Sugar Institute
Greg Simpson  President, Simpson Seeds Inc.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We'll resume the meeting, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), on the study of Canada-South America trade relations. This is in regard to Canada-Colombia today.

We're going to hear from two groups with an interest. First, Sandra Marsden, president of the Canadian Sugar Institute, will make some opening remarks. She will be followed by Greg Simpson from Simpson Seeds Inc. Greg will also make some remarks with regard to trade between Canada and Colombia in his area of expertise.

I think everyone knows the drill. We'll open with brief comments of just under 10 minutes from both our witnesses. We'll then proceed to a round of questioning.

Welcome back, Ms. Marsden. I ask you to begin.

11:40 a.m.

Sandra Marsden President, Canadian Sugar Institute

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

Thank you for the invitation to be here today.

The Canadian Sugar Institute is the national trade association representing Canada's refined sugar producers.

I would like to have been here with one of my members as well as one of the sugar beet producers, but it's harvest time in southern Alberta. Unfortunately, I am here on my own. I will try to reflect the interests as best I can.

The Canadian sugar industry was established in Canada before Confederation, principally to process raw cane sugar as an alternative to more expensive imports of refined sugar. That was obviously to serve a growing industrial base in Canada.

The industry includes both refined cane sugar and beet sugar produced from sugar beets in southern Alberta. The industry has evolved and rationalized in response to competitive pressure and is globally efficient and competitive by world standards. We have three cane refining operations in three provinces, in Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal. We have a sugar beet processing plant in Taber, Alberta.

The rationale for the Canadian industry has not changed since its inception. Its principal function continues to be to supply high-quality refined sugar on a just-in-time basis to food processors. That's because 85% of our production is sold for further processing in Canada. That includes confectioners, bakers, breakfast and biscuit cereal manufacturers, as well as beverage and dairy processors. The remaining 15% is sold at the retail or food service level. Despite that small size, that segment of the market is extremely important to the profitability and viability of the industry. I'll get back to that in a few moments.

Bilateral negotiations with such large sugar-producing countries as Colombia and Guatemala in the southern hemisphere are difficult for our industry. This is because these negotiations create more import penetration in the Canadian market without providing any offsetting export opportunity. It's a complex story, largely because the sugar economies of the world are plagued by government intervention that supports markets and protects those markets from competition. As well, it creates incentives for exports, including export subsidies.

In Canada we're somewhat unique. We don't have domestic and export subsidies. Our refined sugar market is insulated but for a $30-per-tonne tariff, which is small by international standards, only 5% to 8%.

We in the Canadian sugar industry, including sugar beet producers, have appeared before this committee many times in relation to various bilateral and regional negotiations as well as the WTO Doha Round. Unfortunately, on the regional and bilateral side, these agreements tend to pose more of a threat than an opportunity for our industry.

Imports of refined sugar from Colombia, Guatemala, and Brazil tend to target that more profitable small segment, the 15% of our market in the retail and food service sector. Small-volume losses in this market impose a very significant economic impact on our profitability.

The government's own studies have shown the impact of this. Studies were done in the early lead-up to the Central America Four negotiations. The conclusion of those studies was that the cost would exceed $30 million in the short term and threaten the closure of at least one plant, most likely in western Canada. The threat to our operations is also significant, given the close link we have to food processing in Canada, such as confectionery manufacturing.

Bilateral agreements have real consequences for our industry. This isn't just a threat. This leads back to the Canada-U.S. FTA and the NAFTA. The problem is that these agreements created a situation of one-way free trade. We opened our market. Our tariff was reduced to zero with the United States, while the United States maintained its protective quotas.

Today we continue to face a small quota of 10,000 tonnes in the U.S. for refined beet sugar, which represents about 0.1% of the U.S. market of 10 million tonnes. Unlike many other agricultural commodities in Canada, we haven't realized the potential of exports to the United States.

The only potential for us to see that improvement is either through emergency relief--the U.S. is in somewhat short supply now because of an explosion at a refinery last year--or through, more importantly, multilateral negotiations. We really need the global pressure, the multilateral Doha approach, to change U.S. market access.

Unfortunately, we have to repeat our message many times. It is complex. We'd like to embrace freer trade, yet we are in a defensive position on the bilateral front.

I mentioned that this has had real consequences dating back to the implementation of the WTO, which the U.S. implemented in a way that actually reduced our access to the U.S. The consequence was that we closed the Manitoba sugar beet plant. Once a plant is closed, it doesn't come back. So the result of that was the loss of sugar beet production in Manitoba.

The Costa Rica FTA set a negative precedent for our industry, and we've been working very hard since that time to ensure that this model is not adopted in future trade agreements. This committee recognized that issue back in 2001, and in reporting the concerns of our industry it asked that they be taken into account in future agreements. The problem was the Costa Rica agreement created new opportunity for Costa Rica in Canada but again did not enable any offsetting export access. There was theoretical access created as “reciprocal quotas”, but unfortunately Rogers Sugar was unable to enter the Costa Rica market. In fact, the sugar industry in Costa Rica held the import licences for imports, so certainly they weren't interested in Canadian sugar. The cost to Rogers Sugar in the second year of that agreement was significant. They reported a $5 million loss in earnings tied to that competition.

Colombia is a much bigger threat to the Canadian market, a much bigger refined sugar producer. It's the fourth most efficient sugar producer in the world. Colombia is already selling refined sugar into the Canadian market at prices below our closest competitor, the United States. The only way our industry can fight that competition is to match those low prices or lose market share. That can't be sustained in the long term, so removing that tariff, particularly in the near term, would have a devastating impact on our industry. The two plants in western Canada are the most vulnerable, given that Colombia would tend to naturally export up to the west, so both the sugar beet factory and the Vancouver cane refinery would be more vulnerable.

These bilateral agreements are essentially a problem for our industry because the U.S. market remains closed. If we had that offsetting export opportunity, we would be less sensitive to imports from other countries. At the same time, these countries are frustrated by their lack of access to the U.S. market, so the various bilaterals that the U.S. has negotiated, such as the U.S.-Central America Free Trade Agreement, have provided only small increases in access for those countries while maintaining the over-quota tariffs in the order of 150%. So Canada becomes an attractive outlet for surplus sugar essentially because the U.S. market is closed.

We're doing everything we can to try to improve exports to the U.S. I mentioned there was a refinery explosion, and that is a very unfortunate situation to have to try to leverage to improve export opportunities. That's certainly not a long-term solution. We lost access for beet thick juice to the U.S. in the Farm Bill. I was just in Washington yesterday trying to appeal to officials at the USDA and USTR to find administrative mechanisms to facilitate entry of high-quality Canadian sugar when they have shortages. But even during this time of extraordinary need, there's little enthusiasm to address our concerns.

As this committee considers the question of the Canada-Colombia FTA, we also worry about the restart of the negotiations with the Central America Four, potentially with discussions with Brazil. We also have concerns about the fast-tracking of a Canada-EU negotiation. We just want to ensure that we're not a bargaining chip, that our tariff isn't traded off, and that these agreements recognize, for example, with respect to the EU, the massive subsidies, that 1.3 million tonnes of European subsidies are still permitted under the WTO, which represents the size of the Canadian market. This is another reason we spend significant time investing in work on the WTO trying to advance that agenda, because we see it as the only mechanism to address access to the U.S. as well as disparities in policies such as with the European Union.

So as we wait for the Doha Round to re-engage and for an eventual new global agreement that may eventually improve our export access to our natural market, which is the United States, we have no choice but to be preoccupied with Canada's bilateral agenda. That small $30-per-tonne tariff is extremely important to the industry, to the refiners and the sugar beet producers, so we will continue to encourage negotiators to protect that small tariff to buffer against the effects of regional and global distortions.

Thank you.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, and I thank you for your comments regarding future agreements as well. That's very helpful as we go through this.

Mr. Simpson, from Simpson Seeds.

11:45 a.m.

Greg Simpson President, Simpson Seeds Inc.

Good afternoon. Thank you for the invitation to present to the House of Commons international free trade committee.

Simpson Seeds is a family owned company involved in processing and exporting of pulse crops. We've been in business nearly 30 years. As a commemoration of that date, we did a special edition of our newsletter. I did bring some copies for members, and if you're interested, I can certainly hand them out to you. If I don't have enough copies, I can get your cards and send them in the mail.

Our company has two processing plants in Moose Jaw. We also have one in Swift Current, and another facility, a processing elevator in Kyle, Saskatchewan. We currently employ about 80 employees. We service pulse growers in southern Saskatchewan; over 2,600 pulse growers depend on our company as a source for accessing international markets. Our company has grown over the years, and it now has access to over 70 nations worldwide.

Our vision is to be a leader in the pulse industry, and our mission is to bring nutritious pulses to the nations. In addition to this company, we are a third-generation farm. We have a succession plan under way right now to bring in the fourth generation--thankfully. We're pedigreed seed growers, and we bring new technology from universities and crop development centres to our growers in the region to make them the first-class growers that they are in the world.

I have a background as an inspector with the plant products division, which is now called CFIA, in Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. I was chairman of the Saskatchewan Pulse Growers Association between 1980 and 1985, and I have served in various capacities with the Western Canadian Marketers and Processors Association, the former western pulse growers association. I am currently a member of the CSCA, the Canadian Special Crops Association, and I work on market development and the transportation advisory committee for Pulse Canada.

I've travelled the world extensively as an ambassador for Canada. I've travelled to many countries, such as Mexico, Spain, Italy, Greece, India, and Sri Lanka, so I have a very good understanding of the importance that Canada plays as a provider of food to the world.

As I've travelled, I've been impacted by the people through the work of missions--seeing the poor, the orphans, helping to feed the poor, and seeing the hunger first-hand. My heart bleeds for those people who are oppressed and for those who need hope for a better future. It is my view and my prayer that Canada, as a blessed nation, will fulfill her destiny for the healing of the nations. I believe we have a lot to offer by engaging in this trade and by having increased trade relationships, especially with countries such as Colombia.

Poverty is a real problem in Colombia. According to statistics on South America, poverty is reported in about 35% of the general population, and around 17% are in extreme poverty. That's a big number. Some 9.6 million people are living in extreme poverty. These people are huge consumers of lentils, peas, and chickpeas from Canada. It's obvious that we need to enhance our trade with Colombia.

International trade is important for employees and for processors. Simpson Seeds has about 80 employees: hard-working men and women who have mortgages to pay and families to feed. But we're not the only ones in this sector. I have an executive summary from a 2008 special crops processors survey that says there are over 1,100 people employed in this sector, in 96 facilities throughout Saskatchewan. The payroll is around $34 million. Over half of these processors are planning to expand in the next three years, and many are expanding in the next year. There were some five million metric tonnes handled through these facilities.

Our company is one of those that has expanded. We have just added a state-of-the-art red lentil splitting facility, and we plan on building a warehouse next year. We also plan to build a new head office on Highway 1, in Moose Jaw. It is very important that we provide an environment to work through the economic storms of this current global recession.

We also think it's important to recognize that this trade agreement is vital to the 18,000 pulse growers in Saskatchewan. Last year, we grew a record 2.3 million acres of lentils and on those acres we produced a very good quality crop of 1.4 million metric tonnes. Of those 1.4 million metric tonnes, 57,000 metric tonnes annually go to Columbia. It is a significant market; they're our number one whole grain lentil buyer, and without them it would have a negative impact on our industry. Our company alone deals with one customer that takes nearly 20,000 metric tonnes of that 57,000-metric-tonne market. That would represent, in our company alone, about 10% of our exports. That's how important it is for us to maintain this trade.

Lentils are also the most profitable crop on our farm this year. Spring wheat and durum wheats are in the tank. The Canadian Wheat Board this year can barely move 50% of our crop of durum. What's that going to spell out for the farmers next year? You can bet that they're going to be seeding these lentils post to post, fence to fence. We expect some three million acres to be seeded next year, so we need to make sure we continue to open the doors for trade so that we don't have any kind of disadvantage brought to our growers.

Keep in mind, the U.S.-Colombia trade agreement has been signed. It's a matter of time before they sign it, and if they sign before us, that will disadvantage us by 15%. On today's current market of $900 per metric tonne, CIF Buenaventura, which is one of the ports we deliver to, that would represent about a $135-per-metric-tonne disadvantage for Canadian growers. That would result, clearly, in the U.S. lentil producers having an advantage, and it would either cause Canadian growers to have to reduce production or drop our prices.

In summary, as stewards of this rich nation, we have an affordable and nutritious food for those in need. Second, the people of Colombia need these pulses as a source of protein. Third, the employees in the processing sector need our government to enhance the trade. Finally, farmers depend on the exports to Colombia to sustain one of the few profitable crops in western Canada.

Thank you for listening to our presentation. I'll be more than happy to answer some questions on this presentation.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Simpson. It was very interesting. I'm surprised at some of your comments, and I'm glad you brought them to committee. It's something we haven't looked at broadly in our discussions so far. Thanks for that. I'm sure you've provoked some questions.

We'll start over here. We have the agriculture expert over here. Is he going to lead off the Liberals today?

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Marsden, do I take it that your bottom line is that the $30-per-tonne tariff remain? Is that what you're proposing?

11:55 a.m.

President, Canadian Sugar Institute

Sandra Marsden

I think we've been pretty clear that that's our issue. Our market is already open. There's no tariff on imports of raw sugar. There's only a $30 tariff on refined. We have no export opportunity in this agreement.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

That's what I needed to know. Basically, for the sugar beet industry and sugar industry in Canada, what are we talking about in terms of plants, producers? A rough number will do.

11:55 a.m.

President, Canadian Sugar Institute

Sandra Marsden

We have the one processing plant in Taber. It's about 250 growers, with about 150 employees at the plant plus seasonal workers during campaigns.

Annual farm receipts for the growers would be in the order of $40 million, and then the value of the refined sugar that's produced at that plant...I don't have a specific number for that plant. Right now, sugar production in Canada is at about $800 million, so that plant would average about 100,000 tonnes of sugar out of our 1.2-million-tonne market.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

I've been in sugar beet country and seen the plant structure. If the $30-per-tonne tariff doesn't remain, what do you estimate the impact on the industry could be? I've heard your argument before on the U.S., in which in that agreement--Canada being, as it usually is, the boy scout--the Americans ended up in our market and we ended up not in theirs, and that's the bottom line.

Mr. Chair, it doesn't seem to matter which party is in government, the farming industry always seems to lose out in some of those agreements.

So what would be the impact if that $30 per tonne is not negotiated?

Noon

President, Canadian Sugar Institute

Sandra Marsden

You're right, the U.S. is the bad guy, and we don't have access there. The only reason the U.S. is at bay is that we have anti-dumping duties against the U.S. right now. That case comes up for sunset review next year.

That's on the U.S. side. These other competitors are coming into the market. They're already here; we're already facing the competition, so it's already challenging.

The $30 per tonne may be enough to make it unprofitable for Rogers Sugar Ltd., say, in the west, to maintain two plants, in Taber, Alberta, and in Vancouver. Vancouver is operating under capacity. They'd like to increase capacity, but without new export opportunity and with erosion of the western market, that would be difficult.

I can't make the business decision for Rogers, but certainly one of those plants would be at risk.

Noon

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you.

Going the next step, then, the United States—and I think on this one it is doing the right thing—includes in the trade agreement itself the labour and environmental standards. We're looking at a side agreement here.

For your industry in Canada, do you know what labour standards we have to meet? These range from what our wage structure is like—you're in Alberta, and it's fairly high—versus Colombia's, to what our labour standards are like in terms of the safety conditions and the rules we have to meet versus Colombia's, to, if you know this, what the environmental conditions are that we each have to meet. Unless those factors are in the agreement, we are just disadvantaging ourselves.

Noon

President, Canadian Sugar Institute

Sandra Marsden

I can only make a general observation; I can't speak to the specifics of any of those particular factors. It's clear that we have good, high-paid jobs in southern Alberta. It's been challenging recently to get and retain workers in this economy. Certainly, it's a very different wage structure from Colombia's, and with very high standards, of course. We know the standards will be less, but I wouldn't want to comment on the specifics of those standards in Colombia.

Noon

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

I'll tell you what I think, Mr. Chair. What we're doing in Canada in our industry is competing against slave labour in other countries—that's basically the bottom line—in order for them to dump a cheaper product in Canada. We put ourselves at a disadvantage, and I think it's wrong.

Scott, I think you had one quick question you wanted to ask.

Noon

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Yes.

Mr. Simpson, you mentioned that the Obama administration is moving forward with ratification, or with supporting the FTA and moving it through Congress. That's my understanding as well.

If the FTA between Colombia and the U.S. is ratified before it happens with Canada, I'd like to know the effect on your industry. You started to talk about the effect.

Also, Ms. Marsden, for the sugar industry, I'd like to know what the consequences would be of U.S. ratification of an FTA with Colombia without ratification of a Canada-Colombia FTA.

Noon

President, Simpson Seeds Inc.

Greg Simpson

Thank you for that question. I'll do my best to give you a concise answer about what I think would happen in the event that the U.S. Congress moves on the ratification of their agreement before Canada moves.

First, what would happen is they would have a 15% advantage on duties. As I mentioned, that would represent about $135 U.S. per metric tonne. That is a significant disadvantage for Canadian growers competing against them. What would naturally happen is that because of that disparity in price, importers in Colombia would clearly be looking to the U.S. as the origin or source of green lentils. There is an increasing amount of green lentil production in the northern tier United States and the Palouse in Washington. What they would do, then, is go into that market, taking away market from Canada.

Keep in mind that there are a couple of other forces in play that have come up in the last few months. The Canadian dollar is extremely strong right now. It weakened yesterday from 94¢ to 93¢, but we were on our way to 95¢ or 96¢ and could be back there fairly soon. This is a serious concern. If we end up being at par with the U.S. dollar, it becomes even tougher for us to compete.

Also, the U.S. and Canada both are dealing with very low prices of wheat, and it would become obvious to U.S. growers to increase green lentil production and take that market while Canada is still negotiating the FTA with Colombia. That's my view.

12:05 p.m.

President, Canadian Sugar Institute

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

You can finish this one up, but we can't go into another question, Scott.

Go ahead, Ms. Marsden.

12:05 p.m.

President, Canadian Sugar Institute

Sandra Marsden

I appreciate the export perspective. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, we're on the defensive. If the U.S. were to ratify the Colombia FTA first, it would be better for us, because that would bring in more imports. It's not a huge amount—about 50,000 tonnes—relative to their potential export opportunity, but it would take some pressure off the need for Colombia to bypass the U.S. and come to Canada.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Monsieur Cardin.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Sir, Madam, good day and welcome to the committee.

Madam, I wasn't able to fully appreciate your presentation, because the interpreter was speaking too quickly. I'm sure it was more than just candy.

As fas as sugar goes, in terms of the world market, how much sugar does Canada produce? Where do we stand?

12:05 p.m.

President, Canadian Sugar Institute

Sandra Marsden

I usually refer to our refined sugar production as around 1.3 million tonnes. The world market is about 120 million tonnes, to put that in context.

Our industry is largely here to serve the Canadian market. Sugar is produced from raw cane at major ports and from sugar beets in southern Alberta, given its geographic position. We can't grow sugar cane in Canada, given our climate, so we're here to serve the domestic market.

We're different from a Brazil or an India or a Thailand, which are there to serve their own market and to export. Principally their exports would be raw sugar. We use that raw commodity to produce the product that Canadians consume. You can't consume raw sugar; it's not the raw sugar you find in a packet, which is really refined. It's a question of producing sugar of a quality that can be sold to canners, to bottlers, to dairy processors, to candy makers, and to bakers. In the absence of that nearby supply, which they need every day in their food processing plants, they have to look to less secure sources.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Is all of the refined sugar produced in Canada destined for the Canadian market? If not, how much is destined for export? Does your production capability meet the demands of Canadians?

12:05 p.m.

President, Canadian Sugar Institute

Sandra Marsden

To answer your last question first, yes, the capacity is more than sufficient to meet all of Canada's needs. Our plants are under capacity, particularly in the west.

We export a very limited amount. Our major export market would be the U.S., but as I mentioned, we're constrained by a 10,000-tonne quota. We exported a little more last year because of that refinery explosion, and during Hurricane Katrina when they had a shortage. Other markets are very sporadic: a little bit in the Caribbean and under a couple of FTAs, perhaps; a little bit to Israel once, for a small quantity. But most of the major markets are protected. This comes back to why we invest so much time on the trade agenda; it's the only thing that's going to pry those markets open.

So it's a matter of trade barriers that restrict us.

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

You expressed your disappointment over the fact that no new markets were opening up. However, if we weigh your disappointment against the fear that we are being swallowed up by foreign markets, what is the difference in terms of the impact on Canada's sugar industry?