Evidence of meeting #35 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colombians.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carlo Dade  Executive Director, Canadian Foundation for the Americas (FOCAL)

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We'll begin the 35th meeting of this session for the Standing Committee on International Trade on our continuing discussion of a study of Canada-South America trade relations, with particular reference to Canada and Colombia.

I'm delighted to have, as our witness and guest at the committee today, Carlo Dade. Carlo is the executive director of the Canadian Foundation for the Americas, FOCAL. We've asked him to come here today to give a little background and to respond to questions of the committee.

Without further ado, because he will be the lone witness today, I think that rather than subject him to two hours of torture, I'm going to ask for a brief opening statement from Mr. Dade, followed by a couple of quick rounds of questions, and we will adjourn at 12 o'clock.

For the information of the committee, I'll then proceed to the liaison committee to deal with Brazil. If we get the go-ahead on that, we will be back to Brazil the Tuesday following the break to have additional briefings and to hear witnesses on Brazil. That presumes we have our trip approved by liaison committee. That's by way of information. And that will be it for today.

We'll now proceed with Mr. Dade.

11:10 a.m.

Carlo Dade Executive Director, Canadian Foundation for the Americas (FOCAL)

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. The committee has changed a little since the last time I was here.

It's indeed a pleasure to be here for the second time to speak with the committee about Colombia and the Canada-Colombia free trade agreement. I will also touch on the broader relationship between our two countries.

As I noted, the committee has changed a bit so perhaps it's best if I steal a minute or two from myself to talk about FOCAL. For those of you who were not here last time, FOCAL is the Fondation canadienne pour les Amériques. We use the French acronym to spell out the name, as it's much more interesting than the English.

We are the only independent policy research organization in Canada devoted to Canadian relations and engagement in the western hemisphere. This includes Latin America, as our name indicates, but it also has us in the Caribbean and the United States. We deal with the entire hemisphere from the 48th parallel down to Tierra del Fuego.

You will see us in several places throughout the hemisphere. In Port of Spain, at the Summit of the Americas, we were leading a coalition of think tanks from throughout the hemisphere to support the summit process, bringing in a new resource to help a vital and strategic Canadian interest, the summit, our one connection and the only heads-of-state meeting in the hemisphere to which we are invited.

You will also see us in such places as Mexico, where we have just launched a new initiative on the Canada-Mexico relationship, trying to strengthen and reinforce a relationship between the two countries. This is something that really hasn't been done before. There was a lack of institutes and activity in Canada working on Mexico.

I'd be happy to talk about that privately afterwards, but I note that this initiative is being led on the Mexican side by Rosario Green, whom some of you will know as the former foreign minister and current chair of the Mexican senate foreign relations committee. On the Canadian side, it's being led by Bill Graham, a former defence minister and foreign minister. This new initiative has just been launched. We were just in Mexico and the reception there was fantastic, as was the reception in Toronto.

You'll also see us in places such as Panama, where we were helping out on a conference on socially responsible mining. As Chairman Richardson mentioned, that's where I met many of you about 18 months ago as you were coming back from a visit to Colombia, where you were talking about the ongoing negotiations. At that point, there was a great deal of optimism and hope surrounding the free trade agreement with Colombia. Today, eighteen months later, it,s a pleasure to be here and it's a good a chance to revisit the discussions and also look at where we are now.

The chairman mentioned “brief remarks”. I don't know how many people who come before you actually manage to deliver brief remarks, but we'll do our best in that regard. Very quickly, there are three things we'd like to talk about with the agreement.

As with any agreement, the first question that is asked is whether the agreement is good for Canada. That's the question that I imagine will preoccupy this committee. It's also a question that will preoccupy people across Canada, in cities, towns, and ridings across the country. That's the bottom-line question: is this agreement good for Canada and will it benefit us?

A second question that we ask—and we ask this because this is Canada and not the United States—is whether the agreement will also benefit Colombia. In this case, we think it certainly will.

Finally, the third question is not normally dealt with in free trade agreements. But because of the situation in Colombia and because of the discourse that has grown around Colombia, we need to touch on the human rights situation. I've provided some new information, empirical research that's coming out of Colombia about the situation vis-à-vis human rights, and I'll talk about that briefly at the end.

I'll also leave the facts and figures of my presentation for that part of the discussion. I won't bore you with figures on trade and the $1.3 billion bilateral. I'm sure you've heard this ad nauseam, so we'll focus instead on some new information.

First, is the agreement of benefit to Canada? According to our analysis and our conversations with academics and other think tanks throughout the hemisphere, people that work on trade at multilateral institutions such as the World Bank, the Inter-American Development Bank, and the UN Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean, and through attending seminars and talking with Colombians and with academics, there are two reasons why this agreement is important for Canada.

The first has to do with competitiveness and job protection. Obviously, given that the bulk of our trade is with the United States, any free trade agreements we sign and any new trade deals we're looking at are not going to have huge numbers. They are incremental changes and incremental additions, yet given the status of the Canadian economy and given where we are in our recovery, we're at the point now where every job is important. The Colombia free trade agreement gives us the opportunity to grow jobs in certain sectors in Canada and also to protect jobs.

It's important to note that in Colombia our trade is complementary. We're not displacing Colombian producers when we ship wheat. Colombians don't grow wheat. As for off-road all-terrain vehicles used in mining exploration, these aren't being made in Colombia. They're being made in Canada. The agricultural products and the minerals we pull up are complementary to things we have or produce in Canada.

Yet the competition and the displacement in Colombia will come vis-à-vis the Americans. We compete head to head with the United States in pretty much everything we sell to Colombia. Whoever signs a free trade agreement first with Colombia is going to have the competitive advantage in that market.

Again, there won't be a huge difference for us, but given the current status of our recovery, I think every job is important. And it's really difficult, I think, to go around the country and tell certain people that jobs are expendable and that we're not doing enough to protect those jobs. I would urge that it be.... Even though these are not huge amounts, again, every little bit is important.

The other reason the agreement is important and is good for Canada is the larger competitive picture. Through the 1990s and early 2000s we focused our trade agenda on signing multilateral agreements. This simply made sense. This was the best idea at the time. Other countries were doing the same thing with the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas, the World Trade Organization, the Doha Round, and the subsequent rounds. We put our efforts and our beliefs in multilateralism into multilateral trade agreements.

Recently it's become painfully clear that this process is dead. The FTAA, the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas, is not going any place. The WTO is stalled. As a response, we've seen countries around the world rush to sign bilateral agreements, and in this regard, it's important for competitiveness and it's important for job growth. It's also important in Canada and abroad.

The bad news is that Canada has lagged behind in this. We have, I believe, about four free trade agreements in effect and another couple have been signed. If you look at the competitive picture vis-à-vis the Americas, we are close to the bottom in terms of competitiveness vis-à-vis free trade agreements.

Even in North America we are the laggards. A major blow to North American competitiveness has been our lack of signing free trade agreements. Look at the Americans, who have 17. Look at Mexico. Mexico has agreements with 30 countries. The Mexicans are looking at us and wondering what the holdup is.

So in terms of competitiveness, signing these agreements is important. It's a reaction to the post-WTO round, to the failure of the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas. It's a great signal that this government has decided to push free trade agreements, but it's an even better signal that the women and men of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade have done such a remarkable job in getting these agreements negotiated and signed.

The progress on the Panama agreement was simply outstanding. I would like to take a moment to commend DFAIT for the job it's doing. When push comes to shove, it's the men and women of DFAIT who get things done. This time, they've really come through.

Is the agreement good for Colombia? Yes. Colombia is currently facing stress on its economy due to the shutdown of trade with Venezuela, a major trading partner. The Venezuelans are starting to cut off the ability of the Colombians to ship out flowers through the airport in Caracas. KLM and several of the big European suppliers have been flying flowers out, consolidating shipments in Caracas, and that's been cut off. That's been a terrible blow to the Venezuelans and they're seriously worried about the impact on the economy.

But this also has the ability for Colombia to grow trade and jobs with Canada and they're very anxious for this. Interestingly, we also have support for the free trade agreement from some unions in Colombia. Our ambassador in Medellín has just met with a confederation of trade unions who were announcing support for the free trade agreement.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Hear, hear! I like that.

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Foundation for the Americas (FOCAL)

Carlo Dade

Moving right along....

11:20 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Make up anything you like....

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Foundation for the Americas (FOCAL)

Carlo Dade

So the agreement is good for Colombia. The Colombians are anxious to have the agreement signed, for several reasons, and are looking forward to it. Trade will grow. We've seen this with other countries with whom we've signed agreements. Trade has grown with these countries after we sign the agreements. We will see the same thing in the case of Colombia.

Very briefly, I'll touch on the issue of human rights. The debate about Colombia has unfortunately been clouded by—let's not beat around the bush here—a lot of misinformation about the human rights situation and the progress that Colombia has made.

We already have trade with Colombia. That trade has not been impacted by human rights violations. What we're lacking, though, is a rules-based system to make sure that our concerns about labour and other things are in place, and this agreement will give us that. It's good for both Canada and Colombia in that regard, and it's one of the few ways in which you could possibly construe that a free trade agreement would somehow impact the human rights situation.

I would direct your attention to the short synopsis paper from Professor Dan Mejía at the Universidad de los Andes in Bogota. After years of discussion, after years of he-said-she-said talk about human rights in Colombia, we finally have some hard data, data reported by both the government and the unions themselves, from the Escuela Nacional Sindical, the national school for unions, which is a group out of the Medellín that provides training to unions, does research on labour activities, provides support for union causes, and advances a labour agenda in the country. It's perhaps roughly equivalent to our Canadian Labour Congress. The analogy is not perfect, but I think this is probably as close as you're going to come.

There's also a longer paper that Professor Mejía has published. He's actually presenting this in Washington, D.C., today. It hasn't been released yet, so we're not handing that out.

What the evidence shows, looking at the numbers from the ENS, from the Escuela Nacional Sindical, is that we've seen a drop in homicides of those affiliated with unions in Colombia over the past years, a steady and persistent drop. Interestingly, the drop for the earlier part, up until about five years ago, matched the overall drop in homicides in Colombia.

Recently it has begun to fall even more rapidly, a sign that the protection being provided to vulnerable populations by the government of Colombia, including people in unions, is working. The Colombians last year spent over $10 million and have some 463 state agents providing protection to vulnerable groups. Protection is assigned based on a committee with the UN High Commission for Human Rights, the government, the police, and members of the three largest unions in Colombia.

This program has worked. The Colombians have responded to criticisms. They've recognized a serious issue and they've responded. But it's also important to note that in addition to the data provided by Professor Mejía, which is interesting because it tracks the drop in homicides, he also did panel regression studies on indicators of union activity and the homicide rate. So he factored in things for each department in the country, things like organizations, strikes, negotiations, recruitment campaigns, union activities, and the press, etc. Taking into account variables such as income, size, density of population, etc., he correlated that with homicides in the provinces, and he found no statistical correlation between union activity and homicides. He did this on a state-by-state level in the country.

So what's interesting nowadays is that we're starting to get some hard, empirical econometric analysis of the situation, and it's showing fairly conclusively, according to Professor Mejía, that there is no hard link between union activity and homicides in Colombia.

The last point I'll make, before opening it up to questions--and hopefully there will be some questions--is that recently we've also had work looking at some of the trials of people accused of homicides of people affiliated with unions. The Colombian government has about 190 trials of people involved in cases of murders of people affiliated with unions.

Looking back, in 2007, the last year for which we had hard data, there were actually 125 trials under way. In these, looking at the evidence that was presented in court, union activity was a motive in only 17 cases. In the vast majority of cases, it was ordinary crime: carjacking, mugging, and home invasion.

Currently Colombia has a homicide rate of 36 per 100,000. By comparison, the rate in the United States is five-point-something, just under six per 100,000. Colombia has one of the highest homicide rates in the hemisphere. It's not as bad as Guatemala's or Jamaica's, but it's still a very high homicide rate. Given the problems in violence generally in the country, it's not surprising that all groups would somehow be impacted by violence.

Looking at the court cases, what the numbers show is that in the vast majority of cases it is common crime, and if you look at the sheet by Professor Mejía, this would explain the tracking between union deaths and overall deaths in the population. The recent sharper drop, with union deaths falling faster than deaths in the overall population, would then be attributed to the special measures of the protection program that the Colombians have instituted.

I think the Colombians have taken the issue seriously. They've responded. They've made changes to laws in the country. They've instituted a protection program. They've taken some pretty incredible measures and I think the results speak for themselves. The drops have simply been outstanding. This rate of change this quickly is rare to see, so it's a real credit to the Colombians that they have done this.

Finally, to conclude, again, given that the agreement will be important for Canadian competitiveness, given that the agreement will benefit Colombia and that it's wanted by all sectors of Colombian society, and given that the Colombians have done so much to really improve the situation, there really is no reason to hold up the agreement.

In fact, it would be just the opposite. Holding it up will send the signal that should you invest this time and effort, should you be this responsive, should you take these issues of human rights so seriously, and should you have this sort of success, the reward will be having your free trade agreement turned down. To us, that seems slightly perverse.

Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

To us too.

Thank you, Mr. Dade.

11:30 a.m.

An hon. member

The meeting's adjourned.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Yes. Could we just type that into the minutes and we'll call that our report?

11:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Foundation for the Americas (FOCAL)

Carlo Dade

Professor Mejía is actually in Washington. I'm not going to try to recreate his regression analysis for you or go through the charts and diagrams, but if you want a deeper explanation of this, I'm sure he'd be happy to come up here if you'd like to have him run through the econometric analysis for the data and talk to you about sources and other things.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you. We may have time to do that.

Mr. Harris.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I just wonder if it would be possible for us to give all the time to Mr. Julian to ask questions of this presenter, because I would really appreciate—

11:30 a.m.

An hon. member

Absolutely not.

11:30 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

My goodness, Mr. Harris.

Mr. Chair, I am a fan of Mr. Harris on a number of things, although not on everything, but this is remarkable cooperation and I certainly support his proposal.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I have a clarification, if I may. What I think my good friend Mr. Harris is referring to is that we were all so very pleased with this wonderful presentation that we can go right to the NDP's five-minute questions and answers and leave it at that. I think that's what he meant.

11:30 a.m.

An hon. member

It's not going to happen.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Chair, I appreciate Mr. Harris's suggestion and I think I understand his motivation. As a friend of Mr. Julian's, I want to protect him from himself in this case--

11:30 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

--and I think the best defence is to limit his time as much as possible, although I am looking forward to the titillating exchange between our learned witness and Mr. Julian.

Now, may I begin?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you.

I think we'll begin the questioning in spite of the suggestion.

We'll begin with Mr. Brison, who will be followed by Monsieur Cardin.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We're going to keep it to seven minutes all around, for questions and answers.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Dade, for your intervention today.

In addition to your points, one of the facts that surprised me after speaking to Canadian companies that do business in both Colombia and Canada was that the labour laws in Colombia are actually more robust and rigid than are the labour laws in Canada. There is an issue around enforcement, but through HRSDC, Canada is providing funding for hundreds of enforcement officers. That's an example of economic engagement and the capacity to strengthen labour rights as part of it.

You raised another issue in mentioning Venezuela as a risk to the Andean region and particularly to Colombia, where there's such dependence on the Venezuelan market. There's another factor there, which is that FARC is increasingly based in Venezuela, and the threat to the geopolitical stability and economic stability of Colombia represented by Venezuela is very significant. I'm glad you raised that point.

The public sector union leaders in Colombia are opposed to this agreement. There are a number of private sector union leaders who are supportive of it. In Canada, the opposition is largely from the labour movement, and there's a question I ask them: although Colombia has faced a lot of challenges in terms of security, in terms of violence, in terms of rights, and we can go down the list and agree there are challenges, when you get to the bottom of it, how can a free trade agreement with the most robust labour and environmental agreements of any FTA signed anywhere in the world have the potential to make things worse?

That's where I go in a different direction. We can agree on the points in terms of the fact that there are some challenges.

Do you view the opposition to this FTA as being completely ideological, as opposed to fact-based?