International Trade Committee on Nov. 5th, 2009

[Carlo Dade]

That's an interesting question. With some polling data you could take an analysis of the media. You would have to run two things like that to try to come up with an objective answer, so in objective terms I would be hard pressed to say. Like everyone else, I have an opinion and subjective thoughts about it.

I think there's a lot of disinformation. Unfortunately, the agreement has gotten caught up in other debates in the United States, debates with other ends and other purposes, and Colombia has been used very conveniently to settle scores in the United States. In that regard, the impact of moving the agreement ahead is not the end in and of itself in discussions in the United States, in which a lot of information about Colombia has come especially from the union side; the larger goal is to defeat trade agreements in the United States.

We saw this with the last presidential election, which, despite the historic turn in the United States, was really more about trade than it was about anything else. I think this aspect should worry us too. The agreement with Colombia goes down; there were also discussions about redoing NAFTA.

I think we see this misinformation in the discourse about NAFTA in the United States. It's the same discourse that's rolling in about the Colombia agreement. It's not the same thing in that it's not talking about human rights, but it's the larger constructs in which the debates are taking place. It's not about Canada; it's about anti-trade in the United States. Unfortunately, this has become caught up in some of that.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

The violence in Colombia, the war in Colombia, began as more of an ideological conflict, but today, with the paramilitary forces demobilized and increasingly becoming drug gangsters, and with FARC continuing, it's become more of a drug war than an ideologically based war. People are living in communities and being raised in communities where the only opportunity they have is to become engaged in the drug trade on one side or the other, either with the drug gangsters or FARC. Do you see legitimate trade as an opportunity to help wean the people of Colombia from their dependence on the economic benefits of the drug war?

[Carlo Dade]

Everything that can be done in that regard will be of assistance, but it will not turn the tide. Poverty and inequality are major issues throughout the hemisphere. I would never say that one trade agreement is going to turn this around, but certainly it's an incremental step, and again, every little bit is helping. This will be an important signal. It will certainly help Colombia. Any jobs or any opportunities you create are important in the struggle between legitimate activity and the drug trade, which is so powerful and so rich.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

There are two types of economic engagement that western governments can pursue with countries like Colombia and emerging or developing economies. One is aid and one is trade. I'd appreciate your explanation, because I can't quite understand how there are people in western countries like Canada who support aid to Colombia but do not support increased trade with Colombia. They're both forms of economic engagement.

How do you feel about this notion, which comes in some cases from the labour movement and in other cases from particular political parties, that we should continue to provide hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to these developing economies but, for God's sake, not buy their products? I'd be interested if you could help me find a rationale for that policy, because I assume rational people must have rational reasons, unless they're irrational people.

[Carlo Dade]

Well, if you want to base it in a western perspective, you could go back to Schopenhauer and Nietzsche: you feel better about yourself if you're giving. This is your largesse, and it's about helping people, but it's also about making you feel better.

Trade doesn't give you the same sort of good feeling. What trade does, on the other hand, is give the recipients the ability to make their own decisions about buying education and buying health. So rather than our giving them education and health, it's kind of nice when they can earn money to make their own decisions about whether they want to invest in buying health and other things.

Let me note one last point. In terms of groups in Canada, we haven't talked much about the diaspora, the Colombian diaspora. In terms of groups that support the agreement, we have a small but incredibly entrepreneurial Colombian diaspora. If you compare it to several of the other diasporas—the Haitian diaspora, let's say—the Colombian diaspora is composed of three or four professional organizations, of associations of Colombian professionals. These are people who are deeply involved in business and are very entrepreneurial.

An agreement like this will enable them to also do more; it will unleash the talent of people who have come to Canada from Colombia and are engaged in business and trade. So in terms of impacting the situation in Colombia, this is another vehicle for transmitting Canadian experience and Canadian ideas; it's an interchange with the country. The Colombians are incredibly open to receiving ideas and to working with us. This is a vehicle we have that the free trade agreement will impact.

It's not just in places like Toronto or Montreal that we see this. The largest immigrant population from Latin America in Quebec City is not Haitian; the Colombians outnumber them. In places like Quebec City, this agreement will also have the potential to unleash new economic activity and will be important to people in the community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I'm sure we could get unanimous consent to let this dialogue continue for half an hour, but we also want to hear from Monsieur Cardin.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, sir. Let me welcome you to Sherbrooke. It is in my constituency, and a number of people from Colombia live there. Most of them oppose this free-trade agreement. The number of Colombians in Sherbrooke is very representative, I feel.

I went onto the FOCAL website. On the “Mission” page, which is quite short, we read the following:

...is an independent, non-partisan think tank dedicated to strengthening Canadian relations with Latin America and the Caribbean through policy dialogue and analysis. By providing key stakeholders with solutions-oriented research on social, political and economic issues, we strive to create new partnerships and policy options throughout the Western Hemisphere.

It also talks briefly about the appearance before this committee of Mr. Torres and Mr. Barrera, analysts with the organization.

[Carlo Dade]

That is correct.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

They appeared before the committee last year. In that context, let me read you this: “Trade agreements are not a cure-all for any country's economic, social or political problem,” said Mr. Torres. “They are one part of building a stronger relationship and a more stable economy that can generate jobs and opportunities for Colombians and Canadians.”

Clearly, we are dealing with an organization that may be independent, but that is financially supported by CIDA and International Trade Canada.

[Carlo Dade]

That is the case for all similar organizations in Canada.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

True, and let us continue to hope that they remain independent. On your site, I did not see any up-to-date information on Colombia, but there used to be some.

In 2000, I believe, Mr. Martin Roy, a policy analyst at FOCAL, said the following:

As the Canadian International Development Agency has stated, it would be preferable in the future to focus on human rights and other areas of people's safety. After all, the main victims of the conflict in Colombia are its civilians.

Of course you support the free-trade agreement. You feel that it will benefit both Canada and Colombia, and you only mention human rights after that. Now, the report that was tabled by the committee responsible for the study, supported by the Liberals and the NDP, of course, recommended that an independent body should assess and track progress in human rights before the report be signed or ratified.

Your organization's work focuses on relations with the countries of Latin America, but I still do not grasp the importance that you attribute to human rights. I assume that the government has conducted a study to measure the economic impact of this trade, but have you studied the effect that it will have on human rights? After all, this accord is supposed to be a major lever. We would like to think that it would bring about progress in Colombia more quickly in protecting workers' rights, human rights and environmental rights.

[Carlo Dade]

Thank you for the question.

We have not done such a study or carried out a study.

The interesting thing about Colombia is that there are groups in Colombia that are independent, strong organizations and have the capacity to do this work.

Colombia is still developing, but the fact remains that a good number of organizations in the country are capable of doing that kind of study, and are doing them.

You have the ability within Colombia to have these things done.

In terms of the first part, an independent organization to assess human rights and to assess the status of labour, you have two very good bodies already functioning in Colombia that do this: the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and the OAS human rights mission.

We had the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights in Ottawa about a year and a half ago, I think. It was not the current one, Christian Salazar, but his predecessor. He was visiting DFAIT and giving a talk in town. He was asked point blank, both at DFAIT--by me, while walking from DFAIT to his hotel--and by Embassy magazine, if he supported the free trade agreement with Colombia or if he saw any reason why it shouldn't be supported. He said on each occasion that there is no reason why the agreement shouldn't be supported and that we should go ahead and sign it. He said that there is nothing that would prevent us from signing it.

I think that if an independent, credible organization, involved daily with staff throughout the country examining human rights, looking at the data, working on issues in the courts, feels that there's no reason.... There's your independent body. To my mind, if the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights says it's okay, and the OAS concurs with that, there are your two independent bodies. If you want to do something to follow up, perhaps there could be an investigation of what they've done.

In terms of a study, no, we have not done a study. We are not financed to work on Colombia. We do not have money to work on Colombia. Our engagement in Colombia comes through other things we do, and we take advantage of other business to be in Colombia, to talk to people, and to bring up the issue at seminars and so on.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Do I have a minute left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Everybody else gets seven minutes. Monsieur Cardin, as usual, gets eight minutes.

Go ahead.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

At the end of the first paragraph of the document that you gave us, it says:

However, the arguments have been based in demagogy and lobby to block the FTA with the purpose of protecting personal interests, rather than on results and specific figures.

What do you mean by “demagogy” and what personal interests is the author referring to that are blocking the free-trade agreement?

[Carlo Dade]

The comments were in the context of Mr. Brison's question about the larger debate about free trade and the Colombian agreement. I was referring to discussions in the United States. The author's obvious point of reference, the point from which you would start, would be the larger discussions, the longer discussions that Colombia has had with the United States.

Obviously he's talking about the disinformation in the United States about Colombia, and about the progress that it's made. You have people saying that murder rates for unionists are at an all-time high, that there's no country in the world where union leaders are under such sort of attack, and that murders of people affiliated with the unionists are occurring every day in Colombia. These are the statements we hear. This is what I believe Professor Mejía is referring to.

Again, my comments were following up on Mr. Brison's question about the debates in the United States and how dangerous those debates have gotten. They're spinning out of control, losing sight of what's important, and losing sight of the facts. Also, for a change, we actually have hard empirical data not just from the government, but from the largest union research organization in the country, and we have some good, solid, econometric analysis by a professor, an economist of impeccable credentials, who is looking at the information.

So again, not demagoguery but, I think, the data and analysis speak for themselves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you.

Data and analysis speak for themselves. Now, you mentioned earlier—and we appreciate your giving your opinion here, Mr. Dade—the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. Have you read their report on Colombia?

[Carlo Dade]

For which year?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

For 2008, the most recent report.

[Carlo Dade]

No, not for 2008. For 2007, that is the last one we got. We--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Okay. I'm just going to read some excerpts from the report, because it's hardly any sort of endorsement of the Uribe government.

They express concern over the high number of extrajudicial executions reported--approximately 900--and say that the victims are unlawfully taken into custody at their homes or workplaces and are taken to a place of execution. Persons executed or “disappeared” are generally campesinos, indigenous persons, labourers, youth, disadvantaged persons, or community leaders. Military or police report that the victims are insurgents who died in combat; often the victims turn up wearing uniforms and with arms and military equipment of various kinds.

The victims are selected at random. Frequently the bodies show signs of torture. They are stripped of personal objects and their identification papers are disposed of. Bodies are taken to places far from where the abduction occurred. There are serious difficulties locating family members to identify the body. Members of the military and police are given financial and professional incentives and rewards.

This is hardly an endorsement of the Uribe government's military arm--hardly--so when we talk about hard empirical data, I think we have to actually look at the reports that are coming out. Anyone can express an opinion. Mr. Dade, and I'd think you'd concur with me on this, but we have report after report after report actually indicating something quite different from what you've been saying to us.

The other question I want to ask you is whether you have read the CENSAT report that came out just a few weeks ago. It's entitled “Land and Conflict--Resource Extraction, Human Rights, and Corporate Social Responsibility: Canadian Companies in Colombia”.

[Carlo Dade]

No, I haven't seen that one, but I have talked to Canadian companies that have been investing and to our ambassador in Colombia who has spoken on the issue several times.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Let me read for you part of the executive summary; again, this is from hard empirical data.

These are the human rights advocates who are actually going in and looking at the situation in Colombia. I'll quote from their report, which says that “Colombia continues to suffer widespread human rights abuses, including extrajudicial executions, disappearances, extortion, and threats”.

The report notes further on: “Striking correlations have been observed between where investment–both domestic and foreign–takes place and rights abuses, ranging from murder and massacres and related massive land and property theft to violations of the rights to freedom of movement and to a healthy environment”.

This is a quote from the report and the executive summary: “Human rights violations are linked to efforts by those behind Colombia's murderous paramilitaries to create conditions for investment from which they are positioned to benefit”.

Again, I'd say that it is hardly an endorsement of the agreement or the position you're setting out.

I'll continue, because I think there are a number of other comments we should address. As Mr. Cardin mentioned, the diaspora from Colombia is very clearly.... I will ask a question at the end, Mr. Dade, but I do want to get these comments on the record.

[Carlo Dade]

Okay.