International Trade Committee on Nov. 19th, 2009

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Would this agreement not have been an opportunity to encourage a country like Colombia to improve its record on human rights?

[David Stewart-Patterson]

That is what is already happening. If you look at what has happened in Colombia over the past decade, as Colombia has succeeded in engaging in more legitimate trade, we have seen a relative decline in the narco-economy . We have seen improvements in human rights. We have seen an improvement in general human development, according to the latest United Nations Human Development Index. Colombia is now further ahead than Peru. We don't have any problem with engaging in free trade with Peru. Why would we have a problem in increasing our legitimate engagement in Colombia?

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You represent many businesses and many individuals. Have you thought of adopting fair trade practices? Fair trade is not an extreme left-wing concept. Rather it is a principle of sustainable development that takes into account the environment, economic considerations—it has to be a win-win proposition—and social considerations. Shouldn't you be exploring this option in order to develop other fair trade markets? Do you have any thoughts on this matter?

[Jean-Michel Laurin]

I'm not sure how you define fair trade. However, here is how most Quebec and Canadian companies define trade with foreign companies, whether in Colombia or elsewhere: the two companies involved in the transaction are free to set the terms and conditions they want. Canadian companies are nevertheless committed, especially in Latin America, to being socially responsible. Canadian companies are recognized around the world for adopting sound practices. A number of Canadian businesses are genuine role models in this area.

Can we do more? Probably, but I think we have nothing to be ashamed of, compared to what is happening in other countries. Besides, I think most of the trade between Canada and Colombia involves companies that use sound business practices in the community and have good working relations with suppliers and the local communities in which they are established.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm happy to see both of you yet again. You come forward often here.

I'd particularly like to praise the Canadian Association of Manufacturers & Exporters for their buy Canadian policy. That, of course, is shared by the NDP, the only national party that has understood, as you have, the importance of government procurement being directed to Canadian companies and Canadian manufacturing.

As you know, this is a very controversial agreement. The business case simply is not there. Mr. Guimond mentioned the $6 million in pork sales. We had the beef cattle industry come forward and talk about $6 million in potential beef sales. We have the grain growers actually saying they prefer a multilateral agreement. So we're talking about very small levels of sales compared to the overall export industry. The reality is that, as this committee decided earlier this week, what is really needed is a level playing field in funding for export promotion.

So the issue comes back to one of values.

There have been scads of reports, and Mr. Stewart-Patterson, I respectfully have to say, every single independent and impartial human rights organization disagrees with you—most recently, the report on resource extraction, Land and Conflict. Have you read this report or have you received it?

I'll just mention a brief excerpt: Striking correlations have been observed between where investment—both domestic and foreign—takes place and rights abuses, ranging from murder and massacres and related massive land and property theft to violations of the rights to freedom of movement and to a healthy environment. Human rights violations are linked to efforts by those behind Colombia’s murderous paramilitaries to create conditions for investment from which they are positioned to benefit.

This is a report that came out just a few weeks ago.

I'm sure I know the answer already, but I need to ask, am I correct that the Canadian Council of Chief Executives would not be in favour of a free trade agreement with North Korea?

[David Stewart-Patterson]

I don't think the North Koreans are interested in free trade with anyone.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

No, but you wouldn't support that, right?

And you would not support a free trade agreement with Myanmar, with Burma, which also has significant human rights violations.

[David Stewart-Patterson]

If I recall, you didn't support a free trade agreement with the United States, but that's another matter.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Just on the record, yes or no—or, if you haven't taken a position, that's fine too—do you support a possible free trade agreement with North Korea or with Myanmar?

[David Stewart-Patterson]

We came to talk about South America, Mr. Chairman.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

No, no, I just want to ask you. If you haven't taken a position, that's fine.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, that's out of order.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Okay. Let's assume you haven't taken a position.

If that's the case, that's unfortunate, of course, in terms of Canadian values, because those Canadians who shop at many of the stores that are part of your association are Canadians who believe profoundly in those Canadian values.

You have disagreement from every independent and impartial human rights organization, and this week there is a report out from the Colombian Commission of Jurists that analyzes cases of torture by the military arm of the Uribe regime. I'll just read a couple of paragraphs before I ask you a question on that.

Isabelle Heyer, who's a member of that commission, said,Torture continues to be generalized and systematic in Colombia. It is perpetrated by the Public Force, by the paramilitaries and by the guerrillas, but the party principally responsible for these acts is the state.

She said half of the 2003-08 cases can be blamed on security forces, while another 42% are attributable to the right-wing militias. This is the last five years, an 80% rise in torture.

Madam Heyer said sexual violence against women and girls is one of the most pervasive modes of torture, calling itan habitual, systematic and invisible practice, which enjoys impunity in the majority of cases and whose principal perpetrators are soldiers and police.

So there is strong disagreement from independent and impartial human rights organizations.

Do you find acceptable an 80% rise in torture from the Colombian military? This is the military arm of the government, controlled by the government. Do you find that acceptable?

[David Stewart-Patterson]

Mr. Julian, I will presume that you consider the United Nations an independent and impartial institution dealing with human rights, and if so, I would point out that the most recent review by the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has praised Colombia for the progress it has made. It says, the Government has made great efforts to strengthen the rule of law, mainly through increasing regional State presence in locations previously under the control of illegal armed groups.

It is noted that the government demonstrated goodwill and made significant efforts on the issue of extrajudicial executions. It concluded: the extraordinary measures recently taken, including separating some senior military commanders from service, have reinforced the “zero tolerance” policy for human rights violations.

So are you—

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

If you read further in that report, you could also, as you know, read that.... You know that every single independent human rights organization has actually condemned the Colombian government for those cases; you could actually read into the record very negative evaluations, consistently negative evaluations, of the Colombian government.

But this is my question. I would like you to answer it. If you refuse to answer it, that's quite all right, but that would show the public who are watching these hearings, of course, where the Canadian Council of Chief Executives stands. The simple question is this: do you find acceptable an 80% rise in cases of torture by the military arm of the Colombian government, yes or no?

[David Stewart-Patterson]

You're asking me a question about an allegation that I have no--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Well, it's not an allegation; it's a report.

That's fine.

[David Stewart-Patterson]

What I've noted, Mr. Julian, is that the United Nations--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I will move on.

[David Stewart-Patterson]

--while acknowledging that there continue to be problems, said--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I will move on. Thank you.

[David Stewart-Patterson]

--the Government of Colombia is improving in every respect.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Stewart-Patterson, I do have limited time. I understand your peer position, but--

[David Stewart-Patterson]

[Inaudible--Editor]