International Trade Committee on April 27th, 2010

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Procurador General?

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

Procurador is a figure we have in our government who is the one in charge of investigating public officials for misbehaviour. The government has asked the office of the Procurador General, which is this person, to investigate the national registrar's office and the national council for the elections to see what has happened, because we also have those reports. We also have those reports in which people from the government-supporting parties were not allowed to vote and complained of those same issues.

So that's in the hands of the office of the Procurador General, and it's investigating right now, as we speak, the national registrar's office, as well as the national electoral council.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you. That's eight and a half minutes. I gave you additional time to make up for the unfortunate interruption.

We'll go to Mr. Allison.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to all of you at the table, thank you very much, Ambassador, ministers, and all those who have come.

One of the things that impressed me when we travelled to Colombia to meet with President Uribe and other members of your cabinet, Minister, was what they were attempting to do, which was to deal with the transparency issue. I know we talk about all these things we're talking about now that have been challenges, but I think the reality is that President Uribe has created the environment in which you're trying to create some transparency and you're trying to make sure your government is accountable. As a result of that, I realize that there have been people who have been brought forward, and so on. I don't think we should condemn a government for trying to be transparent and for people then being able to see those kinds of things happen.

I have a very quick one before I get to my questions. You have 11 agreements in place. How many of them actually have all these separate agreements on labour and human rights and the environment? Are we the first one? You have other opportunities to trade with other partners. I guess my question is whether you have all these sidebar agreements with the other people you trade with, the other countries you trade with. You're looking at 49 additional ones. With the 11 you're trading with right now, do you have all these particular sidebar agreements on human rights, labour, and the environment, or is this something relatively new for Colombia?

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

Thank you, Mr. Allison.

To your first comment--and I appreciate that you have seen the effort in transparency in Colombia--I would say that these days there are people in jail who would not have been in jail under previous governments. There are lots of people in jail, you will know, who are friends of the government. They're still in jail, and they'll be convicted if it is proven that they've committed crimes, be it human rights, be it lack of transparency, or be it vote buying or whatever it is. Those people are in jail. That never happened in Colombia. Impunity was complete. People are in jail these days, and they're paying for it.

To your second point, in most trade agreements we have there are chapters on human rights or there are chapters on labour or chapters on the environment. But with Canada it's a special agreement, because not only do we have a chapter, for instance, on labour as part of the agreement, but we also have a separate agreement on labour cooperation. And we have a separate agreement on the environment. It makes it much more robust in the case of Canada. We don't have that with other agreements. Also in the case of Canada, we have this new agreement to report on human rights issues both to the Colombian Congress and to the Canadian Parliament. This is something we don't have in other agreements, and this is something particular about Canada that makes this agreement special and makes it stronger, of course.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

How much work do you think it's going to be to provide these yearly reports to both houses: Colombia and Canada?

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

I think it's a challenge, and we want to do it properly, right? If we want to do the right thing, and we want a public audience, we have to be prepared, and we have to engage other offices in the government. Obviously, the ministry of trade would help coordinate, but the minister of trade is no expert on human rights issues. So we would have to work with the president's office. We would have to work with the ministry of the interior. We would have to work with the NGOs and international organizations to do a review that's sound and comprehensive. So to do it properly entails a bit of work.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

I have one last question before I pass it off to my colleague. I realize that we're not a major source of direct foreign investment in Colombia at this stage of the game. There are others that are. What particular opportunities do you see for Canada as we sign this agreement? I'm going to assume that the answer is that there will be opportunities. What direct opportunities do you see for Canadians as we get this deal done?

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

Great. Thank you so much.

There's been a lot of activity lately from Canadian firms in Colombia. Probably the biggest success story of the past year has been a Canadian company by the name of Pacific Rubiales in the oil sector in Colombia. It's been Canadian capital and Venezuelan talent. A lot of the talented people who left Venezuela and left the oil companies in Venezuela have come to Colombia. That's probably been the hot growth story for last year.

I've seen incremental interest from Canadian companies in oil, gas, gold mining, and infrastructure. There's a huge need for infrastructure in Colombia, because we did not invest in infrastructure for over 30 years because of violence. Most remote areas in Colombia are barely connected by road, and these are very simple, very narrow roads. There's a lot of investment to be done in that area.

We've also seen the largest Canadian institutional investors starting to come to Colombia, funds like PSP, for instance. Alberta Investment Management is coming to Colombia next month to see some opportunities. Brookfield Asset Management has come to Colombia recently. You know a few more, but the trade commission is back here....

Also, we see a lot of interest in oil services and mine services. We buy most of the mining equipment from Canada. All those large trucks we buy from Canada. For the coal mines, Colombia is exporting now nearly 80 million tonnes a year, and most of that gear we buy from Canada.

We see huge opportunities in agriculture. Because we're a tropical country, we buy our wheat, our barley, our corn, and our soybean meal mostly from the U.S. So definitely we see an opportunity here for Canadian exporters of grain. If they come before the U.S., without tariffs, into the Colombian market, it is a reality that they will displace the U.S. producers, which are now the suppliers to Colombia.

That's just to mention a few.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Cannan, three minutes for the questions and answers.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Excellency, and the minister and honoured guests.

Like my colleague Dean, I had a chance to travel to your country. I was very impressed with what I saw. I'm glad that we have this modern comprehensive free and fair trade agreement, the strong labour and environmental agreements, and also the additional human rights assessments that have been negotiated.

I come from British Columbia. You alluded to the fact that some of the specific advantages for our province would be for mining and pulp and paper, industrial machinery, and precious metals.

I just want to touch base on what I've been reading and listening to. Specifically, the public sector unions are not supporting this agreement, and we've heard you have extensive foreign investment from other countries, other trade agreements you're working on.

My understanding, Minister Plata, is that I think this is the first time in history that Canadian institutional investors are looking at your country for investment, and some of those Canadian investments are the public sector pension plans. Is that correct?

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

There are several pension funds from Canada looking at Colombia, yes, like the Ontario teachers' pension fund.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

So the public sector unions don't support the agreement, but they're investing in your country.

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

I don't know how that's structured here in Canada. I guess you're making a fair point. I just never thought of it that way.

A lot of the Canadian pension funds are seeing long-term opportunities in Colombia--people who invest, for instance, in infrastructure look at assets to hold onto for a long term. Some of these funds are looking at possibilities in real estate also, because as we recover control over the country, real estate, which was previously undervalued, now has started to gain value. So that's why we see a lot of these funds coming into Colombia, or at least expressing interest to come into Colombia.

I never made that connection that you just made. I guess, yes, in that case, there would be public pension funds.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you for the clarification.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

We'll pick that up in the next round. Thank you, Mr. Cannan.

We'll move back to Mr. Silva on this side for five minutes for questions and answers.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank all of you for being here. The fact that you are present shows that we're all very interested in this issue, and you have shown great interest as well in moving forward with the free trade between both countries.

I want to maybe have you comment on two things that we hear. Sometimes there are two realities that are presented before our committee. One of them is the ongoing election. There have been those who have argued that the Colombians are against free trade, so I want to know if there is any movement at the political level during this election time of any leading candidate or party who is strongly opposing this free trade. That would give an indication of how people stand on the issue.

And number two is on the issue of the two realities. I don't take the view of the extremists who believe there is nothing going right in your country, because I think it's unfair to characterize your country as a failed state, given the progress you've made over the years. So I don't see it in that light. But I think it's important for you to assure us, once again, of some of the development you have done, and, as you move forward with this agreement, of your ability to work also with NGO communities. That's where a lot of the criticism of this agreement has come from. It's from the NGOs on the issue of human rights. Are you able to work with them to put in proper reporting mechanisms and, in the future, possible human rights assessments?

Those are the two realities I would ask you to comment on.

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

I understand Mr. Navarro wants to comment on something here. If it's okay with you, I will allow him to go first and then I will take the question.

[Dr. Walter Navarro]

Yes, on the first question, the two candidates who are at the top of the polls right now are Santos, who clearly is in favour of the FTA, and then Mr. Mockus, who is also in favour of the FTA. Now the Liberal Party is in favour of the FTAs because President Gaviria always supported FTAs. They are in the opposition, but nevertheless they do agree with the government.

Now the one that is against is the Polo Democrático Alternativo, which now has about 4% according to the national polls. This is the party to which the trade unionists who are against FTAs belong. This is where there is representation against, and they represent a considerable part of the Colombian population.

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

I think Mr. Navarro has answered that question very well.

I would only add that out of six presidential candidates--Santos; Mockus; the Conservative Party; the Liberal Party; Vargas, who is an independent; and Petro for the Polo Democrático--only one of them is against the trade agreement, and that is Petro, whom he mentioned.

Regarding work with NGOs, yes, I think we can make a better effort there. Vice-President Santos actually spent quite a bit of time on the issue of human rights and NGOs.

Nonetheless, I would admit that, yes, we do have a tense relationship. I think we can do better here.

I think that on occasion personal animosities have gotten mixed into the debate, and that shouldn't be the case. That goes both for us in the government and for some of the NGOs as well, where personal things transcend the professional and the work environment.

I should admit that, yes, we can do a better job there. We should be doing a better job there of engaging, of working with NGOs, and of working with human rights organizations. But it's also important that.... You know, I understand their job is to look at things, to report fiscally, but I also think they should be fair when things are better, when things improve, and not only focus on the negative aspects, but also on the progress that has been made.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Silva. Excellent questions.

I'm going to go to Mr. Keddy for five minutes of questions and answers, and then to Monsieur Guimond.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman,

Welcome to our witnesses. It's a pleasure to have you here today.

This agreement, as we have heard here, has been a long time in the making. It's not something that happened overnight. Certainly, from the government side, we see this as a very progressive move, not just for Colombia, but also for Canada, which will increase our business and our activities in the Americas, which is something we brought in as a government and we see as a very important part of our relations in the Americas.

There are a couple of questions that I think we need a little more clarification on, and I know it's difficult when we all have to deal with time constraints here.

The gentleman from the unions made a statement. Apparently, the last time you appeared before our committee you said that about 10% of the unions support the FTA, and it looks as though those numbers have changed, or perhaps--it's entirely possible--you were misquoted. So very briefly, could you tell me roughly what you believe the support from the unionized industries in Colombia for the FTA is today?

[Dr. Walter Navarro]

The problem is that union leaders usually don't assess their members as to whether they agree or they don't agree with the FTA. We represent 10% of the Colombian unions, and we support the FTA. What I was saying is that with the new census from last year--and we didn't have information on this at the end of 2009--it's possible that figures have changed to 30% because of the new trade union that was created. So it's possible that support has grown to 30%. It hasn't been properly accounted for, so that's why I probably don't have the correct figures.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

I appreciate that clarification. I think the other thing that certainly needs to be recognized is that unions have actually doubled in number in Colombia, so there are a lot more union members out there whose support needs to be assessed. I think it's worth repeating the fact, as Mr. Silva has mentioned, that there is only one political party that has really come out strongly against the free trade agreement, and they represent about 4%.

We fought an election in Canada over our free trade agreement with the United States, which was very adversarial and over which a lot of animosity was generated. The government was re-elected specifically on that issue. Anyone who has any quarrel with the agreement would certainly be taking the opportunity to make a political statement on that, so I think that's probably a fair recognition of the actual numbers of people who are against this agreement.

Ms. Lee, you really didn't get much chance to explain the group that you work with and their association with the free trade agreement, but from what I'm hearing you're really representing a lot of people who desperately need work, who desperately need to find not just daily sustenance but the ability to feed their families.

If you could, I'd like you to take a bit of the rest of my time to enlarge upon that.