International Trade Committee on April 27th, 2010

[Rebecca Lee]

Is there any aspect in particular? I can give you more numbers.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

I'm looking for numbers of union members, how big the flower market is, and in particular whether there is an upward trend. Are we seeing that as an industry in which there's room for advancement? Can it employ more Colombians?

[Rebecca Lee]

That depends on the free trade agreement.

The Colombian flower industry is the second largest in the world in flower exports, after Holland. It represents 14% of flower exports in the world. Holland has 54% or thereabouts, and after that it's Ecuador and Kenya, who are vying for third and fourth place with 4% or 5%. So it's an important industry worldwide.

As is logical geographically, most--about 79% to 80%--of the flowers do go to the United States. Some of those flowers come up to Canada, because there are very few direct flights from Colombia to Canada, and they're basically passenger flights so they don't have the room on them. Our flowers do go through the United States, but we believe that about 2% of our exports come to Canada.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

Thank you.

Mr. Guimond, please.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to speak to Mr. Navarro.

You mention a union movement, since you are a union representative yourself. What is the proportion of unionized workers to non-unionized workers in Colombia?

[Dr. Walter Navarro]

In Colombia we have about 1.5 million unionized workers, based on the census from last year. We have a total of 50 million workers; therefore, unionized workers amount to 10% of the working population. We in turn represent approximately 10% of that figure. In other words, I represent directly 100,000 people. However, with the new centralized union, I don't know how many people are represented, but they do support the FTA. I don't have the exact figure of how many people are unionized there. I know that last year one of the trade unions was asked how many members they had. Currently I don't know how many people support the FTA. The group I represent comprises 100,000 people. They work in the flower sector, particularly in the province of Cundinamarca.

Was that the question?

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Navarro.

My next question is for Mr. Plata. I want to ask you a question about the bilateral agreement Mr. Brison mentioned that provides for an examination of the effects of human rights in Canada and in Colombia.

Just now, you said that the government of Colombia would do well to make sure that the report that Canada will make available to you is comprehensive. How do you intend to examine Canada's human rights situation in a comprehensive way?

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

There are two things. First of all, for clarification purposes, I just reviewed the latest poll from last night. It's called La Gran Encuesta, which translates as the big poll. It says--and you can verify this on the Internet--Mockus has 38% of the intention of the vote, and he's pro-FTA; Santos has 29%, he's pro-FTA; Sanín has 11%, she's pro-FTA; and Petro has 5%--not 4% as we said--and he is against the FTA. You can check it. The figures are there.

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

It's La Gran Encuesta. It's an independent survey, like Gallup or any other survey of that sort. It's not from the government.

Vargas has 3% and Pardo has 3%.

Regarding the reporting on the progress of human rights in Canada under the FTA, this is something we have to think about. Of course, the initiative came from Canada. We accept the initiative. We appreciate that it's reciprocal. It's important that there's reciprocity in the things we do.

To answer your question, I have to be very honest that I wouldn't know, because I'm not particularly concerned about human rights development in Canada. Maybe as we move forward there are things for us to learn. Rather than a report on how well Canada is doing, perhaps we can find ways to make this an opportunity for us to learn and share best practices. I'm not really concerned to know how human rights are developing in Canada. I assume they're doing quite well. But there are things I would like to learn that perhaps we could implement in Colombia. I'm being very honest with you in that answer--I don't know.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

That is what I thought, and that is why I was wondering about Mr. Brison's amendment.

Earlier, you mentioned investment. We know very well that investment is at the heart of the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the Republic of Colombia. Last fall, we met several witnesses, including aboriginal people and small farmers, who were affected by population displacements, at the hands of paramilitary forces, so that mining investment could take place in certain parts of the country. There was violence involved.

Now you are saying that your government is ready to act to prevent violence and displacements of that kind for mine construction, for example. What concrete steps is your government ready to take to guarantee us that the people affected will no longer be subjected to violence of that kind?

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

I think development done in the right way, with social responsibility, is what leads to sustainability and to reductions of violence and improvement in the lifestyle of people in Colombia. Recently there have been two interesting events that have to do with Canadian investment in Colombia. The first one is that Frontino Gold Mines, which is in a very difficult conflict area in Colombia, was recently purchased by Medoro, a Canadian company. I know this transaction quite well because Frontino used to belong to the government. It was broke. People had not received their payments. It was in a very difficult situation, and part of the agreement that was reached with Medoro was to find a way to preserve employment and to make sure people are taken care of.

So I think it's a breakthrough agreement for gold mining and a breakthrough investment between the Government of Colombia and a Canadian company. This is important because this also helps us formalize the gold mining activity in Colombia, most of which is done informally by people working in rivers, up to their chests in water, digging out mud, and with the great risk of being taken by the current of the rivers or by mudslides that come from the mountains and have buried whole communities. So I think it's important to see that example of Frontino and Medoro working together, and it's a Canadian company doing this.

On the other hand, because I was in Canada I just read that yesterday the Colombian ministry for the environment denied a licence to Greystar, a well-known Canadian company, to operate at an altitude...apparently there is a mine, and to exploit this mine they have to operate at an altitude above 3,200 metres. The problem with operating at those high altitudes is that Colombia has the biggest deposits and resources for water in those swamplands. Those are, if you will, water factories. So in doing so, we show independence, and we show that when tough decisions need to be made--and we are probably foregoing a lot of money in this investment from Greystar--the government is able and determined and steps in.

I think that should also be the case with communities. I don't think paramilitarism or displacement has to do with mining or agriculture. Displacement occurs because of violence, and of course mainly because of the drug trade. Something we have not discussed in this meeting thus far is the drug trade; the drug trade is a big problem in Colombia. The biggest drug cartel in the world happens to be FARC, and this happened over the last 15 to 20 years. Originally FARC was a guerrilla group that in the sixties had a communist ideology. They were fighting for what they believed was the right way to achieve social justice, but that started changing very rapidly in the eighties when they started protecting the drug lords and the drug routes. Eventually they realized that better than just protecting the drug lords doing the business, it was more profitable to become part of the business.

So most of the displacement in Colombia comes from violence, and a lot of the violence is from drug trafficking and also because of the drug crops. Very large portions of land in Colombia, over 150,000 hectares, are planted with illegal crops. So when people refuse to work in those industries or refuse to partake in that, they are displaced people, and there are many causes for displacement in Colombia. One is the drug trade--obviously the violence. In the beginning paramilitarism occurred as a reaction by people to protect themselves from FARC. But of course violence always degenerates into a horrible monster, and those paramilitaries became bands of criminals.

That's what we have today in our country, which we need to fight without any rest and with complete determination.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Guimond.

I have to thank Mr. Holder and Mr. Cannis as well who have both been scheduled for five minutes. We're not going to get that five minutes in, but I'm going to ask the indulgence of the committee to give Mr. Holder and Mr. Cannis three minutes each to wrap it up.

Mr. Holder.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you. I will be brief.

I'd like to thank our guests, first of all, for attending today.

Last week when we had our hearings I actually quoted the Colombian foreign affairs minister, who said, and I believe this bears repeating:

...every inch that we open up to legitimate trade, for legitimate investment, for legitimate tourism, et cetera, is an inch that we in Colombia take away from narco-trafficking and terrorist activities...

That is so critical.

When we focus so much on issues of human rights, and it is critical that we do, we somehow don't talk so much about the business case.

I have a very strong business school in my city of London, Ontario, the Richard Ivey School of Business, and if we were making a business case about whether we should or should not do business between Colombia and Canada, they would clearly come out in favour.

We look at the current $1.3 billion of two-way trade, which has increased significantly over the last five years.

The statistics are that murders were reduced by 55% since President Uribe has come to power. Kidnappings have been reduced by 85%, murders of union leaders have been reduced by 86%--all of this supports the business case. And there's the dramatic growth in unions of 50% since President Uribe, with dramatic, increasing union membership of some 76%.

If I might ask you a question, Your Excellency, because we haven't heard from you, and it would be important for me, if I could, I'd like to hear your standpoint as to why this deal is important to the people of Colombia. If I might ask you that, sir, please....

[His Excellency Jaime Giron Duarte, Ambassador of the Republic of Colombia to Canada, Embassy of the Republic of Colombia]

Thank you very much.

In fact, as I've said before this commission, we are convinced that the free trade agreement is one of the best tools available to a country such as Colombia to overcome the problems that affect us, beginning with poverty, lack of public safety, and the need to give decent work to our people. For us, the creation of jobs is better seen in the external area of the economy, and that's why we have sought free trade agreements with all countries in order to open up the possibility of decent jobs that will allow us to bring back into society the people working in the informal economy. This is the best possible situation for our stability, the creation of legal jobs.

That's why we think the FTA, with the current provisions in the one we have concluded with Canada, is an excellent tool. It is a tool that will strengthen government action. It will help us integrate into the world economy, and it will also allow us to recover the social fabric that we've lost over the past years.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Mr. Holder.

Mr. Cannis.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, welcome. You answered the one question I had concerning how FARC is being financed and what are their most recent activities, but the other question I have, sir, if you could respond, is about the Polo Democrático Alternativo, the trade union party. Are there any trade agreements--you mentioned many that you are involved with, including ours--that they do support?

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

Not to my knowledge, sir.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Great.

To save time, a lot of questions have been put to you and answered briefly. I think it's important, as I close, to give you a message as well. We had President Uribe here, as you know. We had Minister Adriana Mejia here as well, who very kindly gave us some statistics of the great progress that has been made. To save time, I'm not going to go into the exact numbers, but we know they've been continuously in a decline, and we commend you for that.

You said, look, we're not perfect; it's a low number. We say the same thing in Canada. One climb is one too many. We're always working to eliminate that, and I commend you. You can take solace in one thing. You talked about learning from Canada. Let me tell you, sir, we're not perfect here in Canada either, but we're working toward that perfection.

What I do want to tell you, in closing, is that on average, each and every one of us here represents about 100,000 to 120,000 constituents. At least from my point of view, and others I've canvassed, we are saying we want to do this deal for various reasons. Yes, we want access for Canadian goods and services, to create opportunities for Canada, but to save time, we want to be able to be partners with you to help you and your country get to where you really want to be--a good, strong, peaceful society. The one thing that impressed me, Minister, if I may say--and I will not stop saying this--was the statistic you gave me today that you've got 200,000 jobs in your industry, of which 60% are women who otherwise would not have an opportunity to make a decent living. I commend you for that. On that alone, we have an obligation to thank Prime Minister Chrétien, who commenced this dialogue.

In closing, was it Chrétien that started before the U.S., or was it the U.S. that started the negotiations?

[Luis-Guillermo Plata]

Thank you for the question and the opportunity to share this with you.

It was actually before the U.S. We started negotiations with the U.S.... I could give you the exact moment; it was either the end of 2003 or the beginning of 2004 when we actually sat down with the U.S. and decided to pursue a trade agreement with them. So actually the idea, the concept, of the Canadian trade agreement preceded the one with the U.S.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to say thank you to Ambassador Lavertu, your ambassador, and all the other delegates who are here for sharing some stories with us. I can tell you that most Canadians are standing with this trade deal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you very much.

Simply for our own curiosity, Your Excellency, you were there I think at the time. Maybe you could be more clear than the minister on the start dates and who was first. Was this a Canadian initiative before the Americans?

[Gaëtan Lavertu]

Yes, indeed. It was started under Prime Minister Chrétien at the time of the visit of President-elect Uribe in 2002. There were no discussions going on between the United States and Canada at the time. It was part of the policy of the Canadian government to link up increasingly with Latin America. Eventually, free trade agreements were also concluded with Costa Rica--Chile first--and that policy was subsequently pursued by Prime Minister Martin and Prime Minister Harper. I'm proud of the fact that Canada initiated this process with Colombia, and I can only hope that the ratification will happen as soon as possible.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

You have been wonderful. I appreciate it very much.

It has been a solidly packed day with a lot of questions and wonderful answers. You've come a long way. We appreciate your comments.

Before I close the meeting, and I think the committee would give us this indulgence, do any of you have a final comment, very briefly, something you want to say that you didn't get on the record perhaps?

I thought we may have cut you off at one point, Ms. Lee.

[Rebecca Lee]

I thought I could provide the figures on unionism in the flower sector. We have two ways of doing it. The strictly unionized employees are 13.4%; these are 2009 figures. We have another way by which people have freedom of association. They are called collective bargaining agreements, or pactos colectivos, and that's 21.5%. It's about 35% all told.

The other ones have individual agreements.