International Trade Committee on May 4th, 2010

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

What about the attack on labour leaders by the FARC? Have you commented on the attack on labour leaders by the FARC?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, if Mr. Brison's asking questions, he should at least have the respect to allow the witness to answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

That's not a point of order. Maybe we're not going to get any answers.

Mr. Brison has the floor.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I'm asking this question: have you commented on some of the violence against labour leaders by the FARC?

[Denis Lemelin]

Against labour leaders? Yes. I think the position of our union has always been that we want peace and we're against violence. That's always been our position.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

So you've taken a position against the FARC?

[Denis Lemelin]

We haven't. It's internal policy of Colombia. We have a partnership with a union there, and this partnership is to develop the people--

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

What about the Chávez administration that's harbouring the violent guerrillas, the FARC? Have you commented on Venezuela on this?

[Denis Lemelin]

I think people have to be clear. It's always been the orientation of our union to put forward the idea that peace is one of the most important things. We don't go...we develop relations with other unions all over the world to support them in doing their work. For us, one of the most important parts of that work is for people to live in peace, and that's what we're doing.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Let me ask you a question.

Your union is the Canadian Union of Postal Workers. When I talk to postal workers in my riding, they often speak to me about issues around rural delivery. They speak to me about keeping rural post offices open. They rarely speak to me about the FTA with Colombia. In fact, I've never had one of my postal workers come to me and say, “Boycott Israel”, yet your organization takes positions. As a national organization, for instance, you've appeared in front of parliamentary committees to seek boycotts of Israel, which has absolutely nothing to do with the interests of your workers.

In Colombia a large number of the private sector unions actually support this FTA. I'm curious as to what your interest is in this, if it's anything but an ideological aversion and opposition to all free trade agreements.

[Denis Lemelin]

Sir, it's easy to send out this kind of attack, but in rebuttal to you around that issue, I can say that I'm sure--

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I'm just defending your members.

[Denis Lemelin]

--some of our members talk about the issue. As a union, we think what's happening in the postal sector is global. When it's global, I think every union and every president of a union has a right to say what is the best way to change.

Our position around the issue of Israel and around the issue of Colombia has always been that we use peace action. That's what we did with the BDS on Israel. That's what we're doing in Colombia.

The only thing we're saying is that before implementation of a free trade agreement between Canada and Colombia, there must be a fair human rights assessment. That's the only thing we're saying around that issue.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Rowlinson, on human rights impact assessment, doing a human rights impact assessment of an agreement that does not yet exist is actually extremely difficult. To try to predict what the effect of an agreement that is notional, that hasn't been ratified yet, would be on human rights is very difficult. However, doing an annual impact assessment....

In fact, I won't go through the entire written agreement, but will go back to the testimony, before the committee, of Minister Plata. He read into the record what procedure would be required on an annual basis, where both the Colombian and Canadian governments would be responsible for the writings of reports that would be submitted to both parliaments and subject to scrutiny by civil society at committees like this. Having an annual vehicle through which to evaluate the human rights impact assessment of an actual--not a notional--agreement will provide this Parliament and civil society organizations an opportunity to continue the dialogue on human rights, to evaluate clearly the impact of human rights over the long term.

I would gladly meet with you. You said this is window dressing, but we've never met and we've never had an opportunity to go through, in a granular way, the full details of the agreement, but I would gladly do that. I would gladly meet with you anytime. I know it's difficult in terms of the committee because we don't have a lot of time to go through all of these. But I think all members of this committee want to see the advancement and strengthening of human rights in Colombia. The only reason we're talking about Colombian human rights at this committee is because there's a free trade agreement on the table that is bringing this discussion forward, which in fact helps demonstrate that economic engagement can help fortify human rights engagement. But our goal is to ensure, on an ongoing basis, that this continues to be the case, that the human rights discussion doesn't stop once the agreement is signed.

You said, “What happens if human rights worsen?” There's a six-month cancellation clause on this agreement that can be invoked by the Canadian government. On an annual basis, if we find human rights are worsening, and if that is the result of this FTA, that is the kind of scrutiny that Parliament is willing to be subjected to. The cancellation of an FTA is a very significant measure, but it's one that we have at our disposal as part of this agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Brison, we'll have to conclude it there.

[A voice]

I'd be happy to meet with you later on that.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Sir, certainly.

Before you dismiss something as window dressing, I just urge you to get the facts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Laforest.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Good afternoon, everyone.

My first question goes to Mr. Potts.

A little earlier, you said that you felt that it was important for Canada to sign or ratify this free-trade agreement with Colombia in order to move ahead of the United States in reaching business agreements, specifically in your pulse sector. You want it done as quickly as possible because you feel that the United States will be pulling the rug from under Canada's feet if they reach an agreement sooner.

I am sure that you know that the discussions between the United States and Colombia are suspended at the moment. They were at quite an advanced stage. Do you know why they were suspended?

[Carl Potts]

Thank you for the question.

My understanding is that the negotiations on the U.S. agreement have been concluded. That agreement needs to be considered by Congress in the U.S.

For us, the biggest benefit of this particular agreement is not so much to get out in front of the U.S. and have a preferential advantage over the U.S., although if we do, that would be great, but it's to ensure that we are able to--

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

There have been a number of items in the papers about the halt in the procedure. Nothing is moving forward in the United States. The agreement is frozen. You say that they are studying it, but it is more than a discussion or a study. A number of parliamentarians in the United States have commented that the question of human rights in Colombia is far from being settled and is actually getting worse because of all the murders, the displacements and the human rights problems. That is why I asked you the question. Were you aware of that information?

[Carl Potts]

We're certainly not experts who can testify from the perspective of human rights. But if you go to the USTR website you can see the agreement that has been negotiated--the tariff structures that have been negotiated within that deal. That is what I've been referring to about the impact on our own sector.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Do you consider that the observance of human rights is an important matter? Do you feel that a country negotiating a free trade agreement with another country should use that agreement to ask the country with which it is being negotiated to comply with human rights in a way that is somewhat similar to the other signatory?

Canada respects human rights, whereas, in Colombia, as we know, there are many violations.

Do you not think that Canada should use its position of strength to demand more progress on human rights from Colombia?

[Murad Al-Katib]

With all due respect, we are here representing the view of Canadian farmers on remaining with our market access into a very important market. The issues of human rights have been well documented and presented today. These are certainly issues that as corporately responsible entities we always consider. But the Canadian Special Crops Association, the members involved, and the Canadian farmers we represent have made their views very clear that economic engagement allows us to have influence on those types of issues. Isolationist views will not help Canadian business.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Are you saying that, as an exporter intending to reach a business deal with another country, the issue of human rights does not concern you at all, that it is just about market opportunities, whatever the situation?

Is that what you are telling us?