International Trade Committee on May 6th, 2010

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Is there a free trade deal, sir, in the whole world that you think has actually helped?

[Paul Moist]

We believe in trade. I've said that for the record.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Name one agreement you actually have supported.

[Paul Moist]

Listen, the trade agreements that—

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Thank you. I'll let the other gentlemen answer the question, since you're not interested in doing it.

[Paul Moist]

Well, Mr. Chairman, we don't get a chance to get a syllable out of our mouths—

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I think that if Mr. Trost is asking the questions, he could at least let the witnesses answer.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Moist did not answer the question.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

He was in the process of answering the question.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

No, sir, he skipped around asking something else.

Mr. Julian's taking my time.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Chair, this is a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Gentlemen, Mr. Trost has the floor. He can ask what he wants to ask.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Blackburn and Mr. Neve, in your opinion, has this agreement helped Colombia or hurt their economy?

[Alex Neve]

Well, you asked about whether or not this will help the average Colombian, and I don't know who you have in mind with the “average Colombian”. It may well be that for a middle-class Colombian living in Bogota, there may be some gain. For millions of Colombians living in rural areas, for indigenous Colombians, for Afro-descended Colombians, there's a very different reality, a reality that could be about increased displacement, increased violence, and that is not about well-being, economic or otherwise.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Is it your assumption that the free trade agreement will increase displacement and that this will hurt rural areas because mining companies or oil and gas companies will come in and chase these people off their land?

[Alex Neve]

It's not that the companies will chase them. The phenomenon in Colombia is that paramilitary groups are the ones who get involved in the acts of violence and displacement. And it's not just about displacement; there's a whole host of human rights violations associated with that. And that is well-being.

I think well-being, as you're asking about it, needs to be understood in its broadest terms. It's not just about your take-home pay; it's about the full respect for your range of human rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Brad, I'm sorry, Mr. Keddy was only kind enough to leave you two minutes.

We're going to have to move on to round number two, and we're going to hear from Mr. Easter.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll come to Brad's question, actually.

I'm not a regular member of this committee, but I am the agriculture critic and I hear fairly aggressively from the farm community in Canada why this trade agreement is very important to them. I also believe strongly in human rights and that local people, indigenous people, shouldn't face either economic or physical violence. I guess the key here is to find the balance in a way that will improve economic relations between the two countries and human rights on the ground.

So I'd come back to the same question that Brad asked and ask the three of you—and I would start with you, Mr. Blackburn, since you didn't get a chance to answer—on the trade agreement that's on the table, inclusive of the amendment that's accompanying it, can you give us your position? Will it improve things economically for the two countries, human-rights-wise on the ground, in Colombia? If you say it will, then why do you feel that? If you say not, then why do you feel that? It's the balance we're looking for. We want a better result in all ways, at the end of the day.

I'll start with Mr. Blackburn.

[Robert Blackburn]

As you might guess, I think that free trade agreements do help countries and workers and economies. Records show that. There are adjustment problems, as we have had in the Canadian economy. I remember at the time of the free trade agreement our indigenous wine industry and textile industry were dead for sure. And look what happened. Now we have a much more valuable wine industry than we've ever had, and Americans are very worried about how successful we are at competing for men's suits and various things. So I think free trade agreements are generally economically a benefit to both sides.

The other aspect that really hasn't come up is there is trade going on. Coming back to Colombia, as I said earlier, we're established and we now have 160 workers there, growing an operating base. Trade is going on. It would seem to me that putting it inside a framework of the sort that's being talked about, including the amendment you referred to, is likely to produce a better result than just having the trade happen the way it happens.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Alex, then Mr. Moist.

[Alex Neve]

I'm not an economist and I'm not a trade expert, so I don't think I can answer your question as to whether this deal will.... From a human rights perspective, we are concerned. That doesn't mean we don't think that ultimately those concerns couldn't be addressed through an independent impact assessment, and the deal--with some safeguards, some recommendations that have been implemented--could then go forward. It may very well be possible to zero in, for instance, on some of the things the constitutional court and others have said need to happen with respect to indigenous rights and on institutional changes that need to happen to make sure that the rights, well enshrined in Colombian law with respect to Afro-Colombians, are actually implemented.

Some clear provisions need to happen to ensure that paramilitary demobilization actually happens and doesn't remain a fiction. Zeroing in on those sorts of issues, through a human rights impact assessment, making sure they're addressed, could completely change the human rights reality behind this deal and make it possible to go forward in a very positive manner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

One minute.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Moist, take the minute and give your argument.

[Paul Moist]

There is an inclination to attack the labour movement as if it's against all trade, and nothing could be further from the truth.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I'm not attacking you, just give me your reasons.