International Trade Committee on May 11th, 2010

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If I don't use up my time, I'll be splitting it with my colleague, Mr. Ed Holder.

Mr. Ferro, as a few members here know, I recommended you to the committee because we met on an airplane coming back from Bogota and chatted for about 15 to 20 minutes as we were waking up from the morning flight.

You were of interest to me as a witness for this committee because you're into business and interested in human rights and development for people there. That's essentially what your job is.

We seem to have a consensus from most witnesses that this is good for Canada economically, but we've been debating how this affects Colombia, etc. In your opinion, very simply, will this agreement and subsequent agreements--because this one is a trailblazer for the one with the EU and with the United States--make life better for the average Colombian? If so, why?

[Mauricio Ferro]

If we look at trade statistics, we see that trade between Canada and Colombia has been growing, and there we have a problem with Colombian statistics.

Some 20 years ago, I was the Chief Statistician of Colombia, and the problem is that Colombian statistics underestimate the flow of goods from Colombia to Canada. The reason--and it's a well-known reason to Statistics Colombia as well as Statistics Canada--is that most of the trade that goes through American ports and not directly to Canada appears as Colombian exports to the U.S.A., not as exports to Canada.

When I look at the Colombian situation and the problem of trade unions, being in a union in Colombia is a privilege, because only the most modern sector of the economy is large enough to sustain a union.

The small and medium-size businesses, which are family businesses are not unionized.

That's exactly the same situation in Canada.

But growth comes from a demand for goods and services. I think the trade agreement with Canada is going to create jobs in Colombia and is also going to reduce the price of some commodities that we need.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

On the essence of the core argument against this from the people opposed to it, the union activists, etc., I'm summarizing their position, in my interpretation: they don't like the current president's policies of the last eight years and they hold him responsible for most human rights problems, etc. Therefore, we should not have a deal.

But I look forward. As you've noted, Colombia has an independent judiciary and independent prosecutors, etc. Is this deal about more than the past? Is this deal about more than the Uribe administration? Is this deal about the future?

I'm looking at the Green Party candidate who's neck and neck with the U Party candidate. They both support the trade agreement. So how is Colombia viewing this? How is this about the future? Or is it about the past?

[Mauricio Ferro]

It is about the future. I want to mention some important data. Before Mr. Uribe, the length of the tenure of the education ministers was less than a year, so no educational policies could ever be carried out because of the turnover of the ministers.

With Mr. Uribe, the current minister, a lady, has been there for eight years. The coverage of the educational system has increased quite a lot. There were problems with quality, but the future depends on the education of the Colombian people and on the opportunities that we in Colombia have for better jobs, for quality jobs, for something that will generate enough income for us and for our children.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

One of the interesting things you noted is what your company has been doing for social development. Is your company unique? Or do other companies in Colombia do social development? We have heard a lot about the potential of big business to be abusive to workers. Is there good being done?

[Mauricio Ferro]

Yes. One of the things we have been doing, and the Canadian embassy has been instrumental in it, is getting together mining companies and other companies so that we can enforce voluntary principles and move from a philanthropic approach to social responsibility through sustainable development.

No private company can substitute the function of the state in promoting rights, in promoting development. What we have to do is institution building, strengthening a civil service that is accountable to the people and that is competent and honest. Those are the kinds of changes that will bring about a change in Colombian society.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

I will give the rest of my time to Mr. Holder, if there is any.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you to our guests. I appreciate your attending.

There is so much to go on and so little time.

This is perhaps for you, Ms. Hallé. I haven't heard much from you today. Could I first ask a simple question that isn't intended to be ideological? Could you imagine that free trade, presuming that it passes between Colombia and Canada, would presume more jobs, both ways, good or bad? Would you imagine that increased economic activity would create more jobs?

[Tania Hallé]

That might perhaps create more jobs, I don't know, but you have to consider the kind of jobs that would create. In Colombia, in concrete terms, what happens with development projects...

Am I too close to the microphone?

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Sorry, I wouldn't interrupt you, except that, again, with 30 seconds left now, I'll take that almost as a yes.

[Tania Hallé]

Non, excusez-moi. Mais c'est vraiment--

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Tania Hallé]

Pardon me, but that's pitiful. This way of proceeding is really disrespectful and deplorable.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

No, no. No, I'm not...

But you talk about jobs... I don't want to get into debate with Peter Julian, but I do want to talk to you, Ms. Hallé, and I don't want to presume what you've said--

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

My only point was—

Mr. Chair, this is farcical. I'm not here to debate Mr. Julian in this.

I'm not here to debate you, Peter. I'm here to talk to our guests.

[Tania Hallé]

If that's what you want to know, I don't know if it's worth the trouble to create those jobs if, to do that, you displace populations and kill women and children.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

[Inaudible--Editor]...we're going to have to move on.

I'm sorry. You simply ran out of time.

We're going to have a quick second round. I think we'll have time for three questions. These ones are going to have to be tightly limited to five minutes for questions and answers.

I'm going to go to Mr. Brison.

We can come back to Mr. Holder, if you would like to pursue that subject uninterrupted.

Right now we're going to Mr. Brison for five minutes.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to each of our witnesses today.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Casey, on behalf of the Forest Products Association of Canada. Your industry has undergone massive challenges in recent years and significant job losses, with entire communities, in fact, effectively shut down by lack of opportunities and loss of markets.

Do you see this free trade agreement as having positive effects in creating jobs and protecting jobs in such places as British Columbia and Quebec and Atlantic Canada?

[Andrew Casey]

Absolutely. It is not a panacea. It is not a sort of pixie dust that we can wave at the problem, making everything go away.

Markets will come back. Our primary markets have to come back first. We still need the U.S. market to rebound. We need that housing market to come back strong so that we can grow that area. That has to be our core foundation.

Of course, growing our markets in Asia, China, India, where we are significant players now, is also an important part of the equation. But any other new market we can bring on stream, such as a Colombia, where you are reducing tariffs... We're already competitive there. This will make us that much more competitive vis-à-vis our major competitors: Brazil, the U.S., and Germany.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Ferro, thank you very much for appearing before us today and for providing a perspective from a Colombian who is engaged both in rights issues and social investment and in business and trade.

Are you saying that investments from Canadian companies in creating the kinds of jobs that Colombia needs can help improve social conditions in Colombia and social investments in education in Colombia?

[Mauricio Ferro]

Yes, and in help...look, for example, at the other way also. Last year we bought $70 million in imports from Canadian companies. I think that's an important amount.

The kinds of things that we import from Canada, besides trucks and mining equipment, are also on the environment and also in consultancies on human rights and social engagement with the community. There, Canada has an expertise and a role to play, and I think that in the future, Colombia needs this kind of expertise from Canadians and from Canada.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Is much of the violence in Colombia a result of a civil war that has become more of a drug war, one that began along ideological lines but has now become more of a drug war?

[Mauricio Ferro]

Absolutely. The problem with the displacement of people is that the warlords who control a territory have the monopoly on drug trade, so there is a fight to control a territory.

In that sense, Professor Giddens said in a famous article that a frontier territory is a territory where there is no law and no state institutions, and that is the problem with Colombia. In many regions of Colombia, we have no presence of the state: no state institutions, no help, no education, and no jobs that provide a decent standard of living to the population.

Thirty years ago, before Cerrejón was here, no Colombian had expertise in mining or coal mining. Now, basically every one of the 10,000 employees who are here are Colombians. They have been trained in Colombia and they have decent salaries that support a higher standard of living.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Do you see economic engagement and foreign investment as a way to create jobs that can help wean Colombia off the violent drug trade?