Evidence of meeting #24 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pork.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carl Grenier  As an Individual
Jacques Pomerleau  Executive Director, Canada Pork International
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean-Marie David

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We will begin.

Sorry for the late arrival. With the House business, some of the members were a little late getting started. We do have a quorum. We have full attendance as we begin this last meeting for this session of the Standing Committee on International Trade, continuing our discussion of a free trade agreement with Canada and the European Union.

Today we're going to hear from witnesses here in Ottawa. With us is Jacques Pomerleau from Canada Pork International. Appearing direct from Laval is Carl Grenier.

Professor Grenier, it's a pleasure to have you with us. We had some difficulty last time, so I'm glad you're here. I'm sorry for the slight delay in getting started.

We are going to go in our traditional format. We just have the two witnesses today, so I think probably what we'll do is hear opening statements from each of you and then proceed to questions. I think we will probably be through by five, if not earlier. I have just a touch of business, so let's start with an hour, if that works for everybody.

I appreciate our witnesses' time and we'll proceed with that.

I just want to have a little future business about allowing the clerk to plan some of the fall matters, particularly with regard to travel. We have two prospects in the offing. We'll talk about that at the end of the meeting, perhaps at about 4:45.

For now I'm going to ask Mr. Grenier, coming to us from Quebec, to begin with an opening statement.

3:45 p.m.

Carl Grenier As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon everyone.

I would like to thank the committee for giving me this opportunity to talk about the potential free trade agreement between Canada and the European Union.

I will limit my comments to four or five points. This accord is very ambitious and we cannot cover everything today.

First of all, I will make a brief comment on this penchant for bilateralism, namely, the multiplication of international trade bilateral agreements.

Secondly, I will talk about the relationship between Canada and the European Union.

Thirdly, I will talk about the potential of an agreement such as this one.

Fourthly, I will take a look at the way things may evolve once the negotiations are over, namely, the various subagreements that may be reached.

Fifthly, I will be focusing on a few other areas of interest.

As far as this penchant for bilateral negotiations is concerned, according to the World Trade Organization, more than 200 bilateral agreements are currently in effect and dozens of others are in the process of being negotiated. Over the past few years, the United States has set the tone and has been imitated, obviously, by the large trading countries, the large trading units, such as the European Union.

Canada followed suit relatively late in the game. Basically, Canada has a program for negotiating bilateral agreements which is somewhat based on the American model. We have already entered into a half-dozen of these agreements with countries such as Panama, Jordan, Colombia, Peru and Costa Rica. We of course had already entered into an agreement with Chile, in 1997. A dozen other agreements are in the process of being prepared or negotiated including, of course, the one with the European Union.

For someone like me, who started looking at these issues back in the 70s, it is somewhat regrettable that we are developing a bilateral approach when, for the past two years, multilateral trade negotiations, the Doha cycle, have been stalled. In my mind, it is clear that the growth in the number of bilateral agreements has hampered the conclusion of multilateral negotiations. Nevertheless, I believe that Canada had no other choice than to follow suit, to avoid the situation where the foreign competitors of our exporters would be given a trade advantage over them.

Let's take a look at the relationship between Canada and Europe. Canada has been seeking a preferential relationship with Europe for a long time already. Remember the third option, back in the 70s, under Mr. Sharp and Mr. Trudeau. We in fact wanted to counterbalance the growing power of the United States in our economy. We know that this attempt was not successful and, in the early 80s, we came to the realization that we would need to focus on the second option, namely an agreement with the United States, which we entered into in 1987-1988.

As far as these negotiations are concerned, we must remember that it was rather difficult for Canada to decide to request negotiations. It was then difficult to convince the Europeans themselves, who were lukewarm to the idea of such negotiations. Moreover, we can start to understand why. First of all, at issue is the relative significance of trade for the two countries or the two entities.

The European Union is our second largest partner, but it is very far behind the United States. In terms of export markets, it is six times smaller than the United States. Indeed, we are the 11th largest partner for the European Union.

It is also important to note that, further to numerous multilateral rounds of negotiations, the tariffs are very low. Canadian exporters are dealing with an average rate of 2.2% for products entering the European Union, whereas European exporters are facing a weighted average tariff of 3.5% in Canada. So this is not a very high rate. Obviously, the weighted averages conceal spikes in the tariffs which may be very considerable.

For the two entities, both for the European Union and Canada, processed foods are the sector facing the most restrictions.

The data that I'm using here comes from a joint study carried out by the European Union and Canada in 2008. According to the calculations done by the authors of this study, a free trade agreement between Canada and the European Union would represent, as far as gross domestic product is concerned, revenue gains of 0.08% for the European Union and 0.77% for Canada. So we can see immediately that these are rather slim gains. As far as trade is concerned, for instance, Canadian exports to Europe could increase by approximately 24%, whereas European Union exports to Canada could grow by about 20%. This is a factor which, I feel, somewhat explains the reluctance of the European authorities to pursue these negotiations.

Obstacles identified by Canadian exporters with respect to Europe and by European exporters with respect to Canada lead me to believe that, at the end of the day, as we say in the negotiating world, Canadian concessions may be made in three or four sectors.

The first would be agriculture. We know from the various rounds of negotiations for GATT and then the WTO that agriculture has always been the chief irritant between the two countries. The average Canadian tariff on agricultural products is 22%. But that hides some extremely high tariffs resulting from the processing of quotas under the supply management system for dairy products, poultry and eggs. We are talking about tariffs in excess of 300%. These are completely prohibitive tariffs that do not appear in the weighted average tariffs. The perfect example is cheese: the European Union accounts for two-thirds of the 20,000-tonne quota, but anything in excess of the quota faces a tariff of 245%. For the European Union, which is a big producer of very good cheese, it is obvious that greater access to the Canadian market in this sector is very clearly a priority.

Obviously, we are talking about more than dairy products. There are also other tariffs, particularly in the case of grains and processed grain products. Indeed, we can find examples of tariff spikes to the tune of 95%. Other issues, which also pertain to agriculture, and which will no doubt be the focus of the European negotiators, include sanitary and phytosanitary matters, variations in standards, the provincial marketing of wine and alcohol—which has led to disputes in the past—labelling regulations, and bilingual labels.

You can see that I am now concentrating on the demands that are going to be made primarily of Canada.

Another sector where Canada will no doubt have to make concessions is in the area of government procurement. The main reason for this is that, during the most recent multilateral negotiations, Canada did not include provincial procurement in the WTO Agreement on Government Procurement.

As you know, Canada recently entered into a government procurement agreement with the United States, primarily because of the Buy American clause. I have already had an opportunity to discuss this agreement with you. I now believe that, given the concessions that were made with the United States, it is quite clear that we will not be able to avoid making such concessions with the European Union.

Another sector where we may have to make concessions is in the service sector, particularly in the area of financial services. Obviously, I am referring to the issue of securities, where the European services have always viewed the existence of our 13 security regulators in Canada as being an obstacle to market access. The current efforts of the federal government to create a sole security regulator is obviously going to be music to the ears of the European negotiators.

Finally, there are a few other issues that may be part of the agreements, including the recognition of credentials and skilled labour mobility. This is an important topic, particularly as far as investments are concerned. Obviously, these are also matters that come under provincial jurisdiction. I should point out that there has been an innovation in these negotiations. Indeed, the provinces are now present at the negotiating table, which is a first, for issues that come under their jurisdiction or for issues where there is shared jurisdiction with the federal government.

Mr. Chair, I will stop here. I am quite prepared to answer questions.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Merci, professeur.

We will first hear from Monsieur Pomerleau, executive director of Canada Pork International.

Jacques, welcome back. We'll try for 10 minutes. Merci.

4 p.m.

Jacques Pomerleau Executive Director, Canada Pork International

Okay. That should do it.

Mr. Chairman and honourable members of Parliament, thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to be here today.

First, I would like to introduce our organization, Canada Pork International, the export market development agency of the Canadian pork industry. It is a joint initiative of the Canadian Pork Council and the Canadian Meat Council. Our membership includes the national and provincial associations of hog producers, as well as federally registered pork packing establishments and trading companies.

It should be noted that more than 50% of the pork produced in Canada is exported. Canada is the world's third largest pork exporter, accounting for 20% of world pork trade. In 2009, Canadian pork exports to over 100 countries amounted to more than one million tonnes, worth $2.6 billion. Our industry is quite proud of the fact that it has been able to achieve effective market diversification. While more than a decade ago the U.S. market accounted for more than 75% of our total exports, it is now just 32% and ranks second in value behind Japan.

An essential factor for our success has been the opening of new market opportunities, whether through the Uruguay Round, which introduced us to new markets such as South Korea and the Philippines, or regional trade agreements, including the one with Mexico.

We are thankful for being given the opportunity today to express our views on a proposed agreement between Canada and the European Union. As I mentioned earlier, Canada holds around 20% of the total world's pork trade, in spite of the fact that in practice our products have yet to gain meaningful access in the European Union, the world's second largest pork market. For that reason, Canada Pork International and its members strongly support the Government of Canada concluding a free trade agreement with the European Union.

Our organization has identified the European Union as one of its highest priorities in its recently completed strategic plan. Our interest in penetrating the European Union market has greatly increased in recent years. This is due as much to interest in Canadian pork being expressed by meat importers in Italy, the United Kingdom, and several other EU member countries.

Although it is difficult to quantify the exact potential of that market at this time, we estimate that if the conditions are right, the EU could easily become one of our top ten markets, if not one of the top five.

There are three areas of specific interest to our industry that need to be included in the negotiations: first, the EU pork import regime; second, the EU pork import requirements; and finally, the EU pork export subsidies. I will just detail them here.

Of primary concern is the EU pork import regime. Following the conclusion of the Uruguay Round, the EU was very creative in its efforts to minimize foreign pork access by amalgamating all meats instead of providing minimum access for each. As a result, pork imports under EU pork tariff rate quotas represent roughly one third of 1% of total EU pork consumption. In comparison, pork imports represent more than 20% of total Canadian pork consumption and are three times larger than total EU pork imports, and that for a population of 500 million people. Still, the current EU tariff rate quotas and their administration are very complex and not conducive to sustained trade. In-quota tariffs are also very high. So Canada should be in a good position to negotiate a significant Canada-only tariff-free pork TRQ, with simplified administrative procedures in its allocation.

Several western European countries were significant markets for Canadian pork at one time or another over the years, until the EEC adopted a series of technical measures, particularly the third country meat directive, which eventually excluded Canadian pork from the EEC, later the EU. We have to remember that Canadian pork exports started with the U.K. over 100 years ago. It was our very first export market, and that's why we would like to be back there. Our major markets at the time were the U.K., France, and the Netherlands. The same measures were applied against our products when significant markets in central Europe, such as Poland, Hungary, and Romania, joined the European Union. As a result, we lost those markets in 2004.

Although the Canada-EU veterinary equivalency agreement has substantially made it easier for some Canadian pork plants to become EU approved, there are still more negotiations required to make it a true equivalency agreement. Plants that wish to meet the EU standards under that agreement still have to incur, in order to comply, significant expenses and to implement strict protocols. At this time, only two Canadian pork plants are EU approved. In fact, I could name them here: Viandes duBreton and also Aliments Lucyporc, both in Quebec, with more in other provinces considering it. But better access and fewer constraining plant registration requirements would definitely convince most Canadian plants to seek an EU registration, as it could also have an impact on other neighbouring markets.

EU pork subsidies have been restored and can apply to all markets. Canada should insist that it should at least not be used for shipments to Canada, although it's not currently used by the Europeans for shipments to Canada, but just to be sure that it isn't in the future.

It is worth noting that all the issues we have with the European Union have been well documented over the years by the Government of Canada. We wish to be closely involved in the negotiations, like we have been in the latest FTA negotiations with other countries of interest to us.

Do I have still have one more minute to cover another topic? Thank you.

Just to take one more minute of the committee's time, we wish to bring to your attention that the European Union and the Republic of South Korea have signed a free trade agreement. We expect this development will revive interest in the United States to implement the deal they completed with South Korea two years ago. Still we cannot take any chance that they will.

South Korea is Canada's fourth-largest market for pork exports, and our sales are on track to exceed $125 million per year this year. All the Korean agents of the Canadian exporters are unanimous in saying that there are very good opportunities developing for a wide range of products, but mostly for value-added products such as chilled pork.

It happens that Canada's two principal competitors on the South Korean pork market are the EU and the United States, and Canada has a very significant interest in not being left behind. Our third competitor on the South Korean pork market is Chile, and they also have an agreement with South Korea.

Our South Korean contacts made it very clear that without an agreement with South Korea, the Canadian pork industry will be almost out of that market within two years. Therefore, we urge the committee to support efforts to resume the negotiations shortly and to finalize a Canada-South Korea free trade agreement as early as possible. There is no doubt in our mind that not concluding an FTA with South Korea would more than negate any gain we could make in successfully concluding one with the EU. Both agreements are important for our industry.

Thank you very much for your time today. I look forward to answering any questions you may have.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you.

We will begin questioning today with Mr. Silva of the Liberal Party.

Mr. Silva.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Grenier, you expressed your hesitation and concern stemming from the fact that the provinces are really at the table. Indeed, we know that the provinces have different jurisdictions. In our federation, we have always had consultations with the provinces. For an accord such as this one, it is truly very complicated. There will certainly be clarifications, support and declarations coming from each province.

Could you please elaborate further on your concerns in this area?

4:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

I apologize, but I did not understand the member's question. I would prefer to hear his question once again in the language that he used, be it English or French. Unfortunately, I did not understand the question.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

You spoke about your concern and you made several points. Finally, you indicated that the provinces must be at the table. Is that in fact what you said, yes or no?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

I mentioned that the provinces were already at the negotiating table. This is the first time that Canada has done this in trade negotiations.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Perhaps I did not understand you correctly when you spoke, but I believe you to have said that you were worried about the fact that the provinces were not at the table. Did I understand properly?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

No, I said exactly the opposite. I emphasized the fact that the provinces had been invited to the negotiating table. I believe that this is a very positive development.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

It was my mistake, I hadn't understood correctly, thank you.

I wanted clarification and I got clarification. I thought it was the opposite, and you can't make an argument when you think it's the opposite.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

That's right. Well, you can, but you'd look silly.

Monsieur Laforest.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Grenier, good afternoon.

Good afternoon to our two witnesses.

When you came to testify about the Agreement on Government Procurement in relation to the Buy American Act, your comments and your opinion were, we might say, very much against this idea. You said that it would open the door to other problems, in your opinion. You said earlier that it would be difficult to conclude anything with the European Union that could be different from what was negotiated with the United States.

In your opinion, can the damage nonetheless be limited, as you say, in this Agreement on Government Procurement? Should Canada and the provinces be very vigilant regarding certain specific points? Should the agreement contain certain articles that would prevent too open an interpretation?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

Once again, I do not know who I am addressing, and I would prefer to hear the questions in the language in which they were put.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I put my question in French. I am Jean-Yves Laforest. Did you hear it?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

I only heard it in English.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Grenier is perfectly bilingual, I believe. I will quickly repeat it.

I said that when you came to testify...

Can you hear me in French?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

A voice

There is a problem.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Excuse me, Professor Grenier. We just need a moment to get this clarified.

I'll ask the clerk to see what's up.

4:10 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Jean-Marie David

Mr. Grenier, may I ask whether you can hear the French now?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

Yes, I hear you very well.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Let us put the counter back to zero. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When you came to meet us to discuss the Agreement on Government Procurement with the United States in the context of the Buy America Act, you made some comments that showed you had some very serious reservations. You were even opposed to it because it would create precedents. You said more or less the same thing today, when you said that now that this agreement has been reached with the United States, it would be difficult to reach a different agreement with the European Union. However, as the negotiations are not over, do you think that there could be some articles in this agreement that could limit the damage that you anticipated or that you foresee?

4:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

Thank you for the question.

I would like to give more details regarding the Buy American agreement with the United States, and with my criticism of it. The requirements that had blocked the negotiations in the mid-1990s were dropped. We wanted to get an exception to the American provision regarding purchases reserved to American small- and medium-sized enterprises and to companies owned by minority groups. This provision deprives us of 23% of the American market. It is for this very reason that we had not, in the 1990s, included purchases by provinces in the WTO Agreement on Government Procurement.

Now that we have yielded to the United States on that point, it will be very difficult not to accept the requests made by the European Union, that would like to get the same kind of access. In the 1990s, the European Union submitted the purchases of its member-states and of their sub-central units to the discipline of the Agreement on Government Procurement. They have been doing this for more than 15 years. We have not done it. Now, obviously, we will have to go ahead with it. I think it is almost unavoidable that there will eventually be an agreement on government procurement that also involves provincial procurement.