Evidence of meeting #48 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was case.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Scott Sinclair  Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Fred McMahon  Vice-President Research, Fraser Institute
David Coles  President, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
Michael G. Woods  Partner, Trade and Competition Group, Heenan Blaikie, As an Individual
Jean-Michel Laurin  Vice-President, Global Business Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

10:35 a.m.

President, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada

David Coles

Well, there are two parts to the question. One is that I can't speak on behalf of the Harper government. You'd have to ask them why they did it and put the resources of Canada at such risk.

The issue is very disconcerting for our union, and that's all I can speak for, because we represent workers in resource extraction. I am not being facetious here. If a company that gets the right to extract a resource shuts it down because they can make some money somewhere else and they think they have the right to leave it shut down, and the province that gave them those rights to extract can't exercise rights when it's broken its rules....

I was just before a panel the other day, around Stelco, which is now U. S. Steel Canada. They make commitments to the Canadian government that they're going to do certain things, deliberately break them, don't do them, and we go, “Oh, well...”.

What about the rights of the citizens who are paying the taxes? I'm not opposed to foreign ownership and I'm not opposed to fair trade, but if there are rules and a corporation breaks those rules, how do they get to trump citizens?

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thank you very much for that.

I'd like to ask our other witnesses. I'm a member of the Burnaby Board of Trade. I've won business awards. I'm a long-standing member of the New Westminster Chamber of Commerce. The small businesses in my area respect their contractual obligations. They very clearly keep their word. They walk the talk. I'm a little disturbed by a kind of blanket acceptance that even a company that repeatedly breaks its word, breaks its contracts, refuses to meet its obligations, is being defended in a process that, to my mind, was clearly irresponsible.

You seem to be speaking more philosophically about chapter 11, but do you not agree that when a company repeatedly breaks its obligations, chapter 11 should not be a device by which they can get compensation when they've broken their word and their contractual obligations and they refuse to meet their commitments?

10:40 a.m.

Partner, Trade and Competition Group, Heenan Blaikie, As an Individual

Michael G. Woods

I think that the concept of expropriation is pretty simple. If somebody takes something from you—takes your investment, takes your house, takes something that you've built and invested in—the international law and, to a lesser extent, domestic law--although I'm not an expert in domestic law--provides for compensation. In this process, nobody took away the right of the Newfoundland government or of any of the provincial governments to manage natural resources.

I don't know the whole history of AbitibiBowater and what was going on. My simple assertion this morning was that from both sides of the counsel table--from the federal government lawyers who advised government and from the lawyers advising AbitibiBowater—it was a settlement worth making, because it was a lot less than the eventual claim could have been. The claim could have gone on for a long, long time. I think that in terms of people's concerns about the precedential value of the claim and the concerns about what this was going to lead to, having that case go on as a $500 million or $600 million case and having damages go on would have made it more difficult. The case was settled relatively quickly, and it was settled relatively quietly.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

But the public interest wasn't maintained.

10:40 a.m.

Partner, Trade and Competition Group, Heenan Blaikie, As an Individual

Michael G. Woods

No, no. If there's a link, and this is just my view....

I remember years ago when I was in the federal government, I used to lead a delegation to the OECD. We had the OECD members, and we had BIAC, which was the business council, and we had TUAC, which was the workers. The three groups were never able, except on very rare occasions, to meet together, and part of the problem is, I think, that the issues you are all talking about have really very little to do with chapter 11. Chapter 11 basically states that if you have an investment in Canada and it's taken away, whatever the circumstances, if you can show that you have an investment and you can meet the tests of article 1110—

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

But they didn't have to here.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Sorry, Mr. Julian; your time has expired. I think you made the point.

Mr. Trost, can you wrap this up? We've got about five minutes.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I must say I'm finding this an interesting session. I'm not here to defend or criticize the company--it sounds as though they have made more than their share of mistakes and are due for a certain element of criticism--but I'm interested in making sure that Canada defends the rule of law and meets its international obligations. I'm interested in improving our legislation for future times when this might happen, because this case is moving on. It particularly interests me--as some of the witnesses have stated--that international investors get more protection under chapter 11 than domestic investors will get under domestic legislation for their properties in cases of expropriation, and so forth.

My question is to our lawyer friends here. Can you give me a basic understanding--I'm a non-lawyer--as to what protections there are for property from expropriation, etc., under chapter 11, under domestic law, and who actually receives more protection? Is it fairly equal; if not, why? Would it be very advisable to make it more equal?

I know you could probably do a third-year law class on that, but do your best in four minutes.

10:45 a.m.

Partner, Trade and Competition Group, Heenan Blaikie, As an Individual

Michael G. Woods

First of all, I'm an international trade lawyer and I've spent 25 to 30 years doing that. I left domestic practice when I left a firm in Sudbury, Ontario, where I was a litigator, so I can't speak to you with great expertise on the law of expropriation in Canada domestically.

I do believe it would be great for Canadian investors if they were able to use a chapter 11-like device to protect themselves against threats to their own investments here in Canada, but they can't, because that's not the way NAFTA is set up. I'm pretty certain that in most major developed countries--G-8 and G-7 countries--we're trying to attract large amounts of investment, and there's an international standard. It was set many years ago to protect countries like the United States and Canada in countries where there was a real danger that a massive investment could be taken away at the whim of a leader of some country, so those provisions are stronger.

We could get back to you with more, but in the domestic context there is a lot more discretion in the government in terms of how they address the expropriation exercise and how they compensate. I'm sorry that I don't know the details.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

I can follow up.

In your opinion, would it be a good idea to put something equivalent to chapter 11 into domestic legislation to provide more property protection for domestic investors? That would equal the playing field and end this forum shopping that has been alleged by other witnesses.

10:45 a.m.

Partner, Trade and Competition Group, Heenan Blaikie, As an Individual

Michael G. Woods

I don't want to cop out, but it's a question that's a little beyond my jurisdiction. I would certainly, as a practitioner, love to be able to take the tools we have in chapter 11 and use them to defend Canadian investors, wherever their investments are.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Mr. Laurin, you can comment on that.

10:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Global Business Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

Jean-Michel Laurin

Like Michael, I'm not necessarily familiar with domestic legislation. It's not a concern that's been raised to us by our members yet, but we haven't consulted them on the specific issue either. Obviously, as I mentioned earlier, we want a rules-based regime, but as for differences between chapter 11 protection and domestic protection, I can't really comment more.

10:45 a.m.

Partner, Trade and Competition Group, Heenan Blaikie, As an Individual

Michael G. Woods

Here's another point: when foreign investors are upset at the way the government of whatever country is treating them, their remedy is international investor-state arbitration. They can't go to the ballot box and change the government.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

I have 15 seconds here. Would it be profitable for everyone involved if this were simplified?

Mr. Woods, you said there are ways to make it more accessible to people. Are there ways we could simplify this so the process could be quicker for resolution and clearer for investors, both domestic and international?

10:45 a.m.

Partner, Trade and Competition Group, Heenan Blaikie, As an Individual

Michael G. Woods

In my view there are always ways to improve it. I think one of the problems with this particular case is that whatever faults, if any, the claimant in question had coming in, or whatever they brought to the table in terms of their own situation, it looks as though that aspect wasn't addressed in a unified way.

The provincial government took steps, and because of the international trade jurisdiction, the federal government was left with the problem. The problem was solved through a settlement, but the leverage back at the investor....

I've represented investors in these kinds of claims, and if you're facing a government that's negotiating with a kind of full-court press with everybody on the same page, then you have a discussion, you have a negotiation, and then you have the government side saying that if you're doing this, we can do this back.

What happened here was that it happened just like that--overnight, I think; I wasn't privy to the discussions. Then next the federal government was served with a notice of intent, a notice of arbitration; they were looking at a $500 million or $600 million liability. Whether it's right or wrong, I think it's not debatable that this is a liability on the federal crown.

There's no mechanism. People have written since this case that there ought to be one, and I think even the government officials talked about it being a subject for further discussion. There's no mechanism in place to create that kind of full-court press, right from the person who's having problems losing his or her job....

We have to really think of all of us. We're all Canadians. We're all individuals. We all have jobs. We all have to make a living.

I've been a trade negotiator. I've fought for the provinces in the liquor boards and the beer wars. We have to get it lined up so that we're on the same page and we're a team. If we're not a team, then it's simple: the other side says, “Hey, this isn't a team. We're going to go there because that's our best bet. When we go there, we don't have to worry about the people over there, or there, because they don't even talk to each other.”

Now, I know it's not that bad. The fact is that we live in a great country, and part of the greatness of our country is that we're able to live in different jurisdictions with different rules and sets of laws in different communities. However, when we're threatened by a case like this NAFTA chapter 11 case, the world is a tough place out there. I was a trade commissioner too, and I went to really tough countries. I tried to negotiate for Canada to win contracts, and if you're not working together....

There were famous stories—and it's not as bad as it used to be—when I was a trade commissioner, of two or three Canadian companies bidding against each other for the same product. There were 12 other bids, and every other country got their act together—in Brussels, Paris, Washington, New York—and they were all one single team.

We have our differences and we're always going to have our differences, but the great thing about Canada is we can have them. However, when we're hit by a big case, by a major liability, we have to figure out a way to work together. It's quite doable, and I've seen cases of it happeneing. The beer wars were an example. We got the provincial governments all together in a room. We fought for them. We talked to them about what our arguments were going to be at the WTO and the GATT and we worked together.

That can happen, and that should be happening more. I don't think it takes a new agreement. It doesn't take a constitutional amendment. It just takes good folks like you sitting in a room with counterparts and working it out.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

That's a great way to wrap it. Thank you very much, Mr. Woods.

Mr. Coles and Monsieur Laurin, thank you, again. We appreciate your time.

I'm going to bid farewell to our witnesses.

I have a quick point for the committee. If I could have your attention for one second, March 22 is our next scheduled meeting, and it is the day of the budget. I have been advised by the clerk that a number of the committees, particularly those meeting in the afternoon, are cancelling their meetings for that day. With regard to those who meet in the morning, I'm aware of one at 11:00 that is cancelling because of the lock-up.

Our schedule for that day has been set. The item on the agenda is a review of our Washington report, and the analysts will have the report prepared for next week. We'll discuss it and conclude it at that meeting. We will also give instructions to the analysts with regard to wrapping up the testimony we have heard on AbitibiBowater.

That is what is on the agenda, and I want to get your thoughts one way or another on it.

10:50 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Chair, you're not proposing cancellation, then.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

No, I'm just asking for your point of view on whether we should or shouldn't.

10:50 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

I'd like to have the meeting.

10:50 a.m.

An hon. member

Thursday is fine.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

What do you mean, Thursday is fine? It's on Tuesday, March 22. Are we going to have a meeting or not have a meeting? That's the question.

10:50 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

We'll have no meeting on Tuesday. Thursday is fine to have a meeting.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

No, let's set the meeting. Let's get it done.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

I don't know why we wouldn't go ahead. My sense is that we should go ahead with the meeting.