Evidence of meeting #16 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Don Stephenson  Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Michelle Cooper  Director, Services Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Luc Santerre  Director, South, Southeast Asia and Oceania Commercial Relations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I'd like to bring the meeting to order. We have enough members at the table and we have our witnesses.

I'd like to thank this group for coming in. I know you've been in before, but we didn't get to hear you. This has been bounced around a little bit by committee, and I apologize for that, but things happen in the House. Nonetheless, we're pleased to have you with us.

I believe, Don Stephenson, that you are going to do the presentation, and you'll introduce the people you have with you.

This is going to be a study of a comprehensive economic and partnership agreement with India.

We welcome you to the committee and yield the floor to you at this time.

11:05 a.m.

Don Stephenson Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As the chair mentioned, my name is Don Stephenson, and I am the Chief Trade Negotiator for the Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement.

It's my pleasure to be here today to speak on the topic of the Canada–India comprehensive economic and partnership agreement, or CEPA.

With me from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade is Luc Santerre.

Luc is the Director of Southeast Asia and Oceania Commercial Relations.

Also with me are Eric Robinson, the deputy chief negotiator for the CEPA negotiations, and Michelle Cooper, director, services trade policy division.

As the committee will know, MinisterFast was in India from November 3 to 9 and travelled to the cities of Delhi, Ahmedabad, Pune, and Mumbai to pursue Canadian interests in key sectors. I had the privilege of joining the minister on his mission, the purpose of which was to strengthen Canada–India trade and investment ties; to meet with Indian government ministers and advance key policy interests; to meet with Indian business leaders to showcase Canadian know-how and capabilities; to attract Indian investment to Canada; and to advance the commercial interests of Canadian businesses seeking new opportunities in this priority market.

Sectors that Minister Fast's mission targeted to generate expanded opportunities for Canadian businesses included agriculture and agrifood, where India's growing population and rising living standards present expanding opportunities for Canadian producers; infrastructure, where the Government of India has identified the need for investments of $800 billion, including roads, bridges, railways, ports, and airports, where Canadian businesses can participate and benefit; and education, where Canadian know-how can help bridge the large gap between the supply of and demand for educational facilities and address the shortage of qualified educators. There were several other key sectors, such as energy, manufacturing, and information and communications technology.

Overall, India's growing economy is increasing its demand for products, services and expertise. India's economy grew by an annual average of 8.2% between 2006 and 2010—an indication that India's economy is well on its way to becoming one of the largest in the world.

Let me now provide some context for the Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement negotiations, an update on where we are in the talks, and our expectations in the coming months.

Canada is pursuing an ever more ambitious array of trade negotiations with partners around the world. The agenda is set out in the government's global commerce strategy. The driver is very much the state of play or, regrettably, the impasse in the multilateral negotiations in Geneva, and the multiplication of bilateral and regional FTA initiatives on the part of virtually all of our competitors.

In short, we have dramatically stepped up our game in the bilateral arena to try to get a leg up on our competitors wherever possible and to ensure a level playing field for our businesses around the world. Since 2006, Canada has concluded free trade agreements with nine countries: the four European Free Trade Association states of Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein, as well as Peru, Colombia, Jordan, Panama, and Honduras. Many more are in the works, including a free trade negotiation with the EU, Canada's most significant trade initiative since the signing of NAFTA nearly 20 years ago.

In addition to the most ambitious pursuit of free trade agreements in Canada's recent history, Canada is expanding its network of foreign investment promotion and protection agreements, science and technology cooperation agreements, and air services agreements. The overall objective for all of these initiatives is to solidify and expand Canadian access to global markets because they will create jobs and economic growth for Canadian workers and their families.

The decision to pursue economic partnership negotiations with India is also part of Canada's broader strategy of engagement with this increasingly important country.

India is, of course, a key global market, and Canada-India relations continue to deepen and strengthen. Engagement is increasing in the realms of science, technology, research and academic exchange. In addition to the bilateral science and technology agreement already in place, Budget 2011 provides $12 million over five years for a Canada-India research centre of excellence.

We are working to conclude a foreign investment promotion and protection agreement with India in the very near future. We are also finalizing the last details of the Canada-India Social Security Agreement. As Prime Minister Harper has indicated, we hope to sign both agreements as soon as possible.

Canada and India have also signed a nuclear cooperation agreement, which will allow for Canadian companies' participation in commercial civil nuclear power opportunities. We look forward to the conclusion of the administrative arrangement that will allow the agreement to be fully implemented.

India is clearly a priority market for Canadian commercial engagement. Fuelled by progressive liberalization since the early 1990s, its economy continues to grow rapidly, while maintaining high growth rates of over 6% even through the global economic crisis. The country has already established itself as a key player in global value chains, and its middle class has between 150 million and 250 million people, constituting a consumer market of some $400 billion. It is projected that India will have the world's fourth largest economy by 2025 and third largest by 2050, by which time it is also expected to become the world's most populous nation.

Both Canada and India have trillion-dollar economies, and bilateral trade and investment levels have been growing rapidly, with bilateral trade doubling over the past decade. As India becomes an integral part of global supply chains, Canadian companies such as Bombardier, Sun Life, and SNC-Lavalin have established and grown their partnerships in India, while Indian companies like Essar, Tata, and Birla have been equally active in the Canadian market.

Still, the Canada-India commercial relationship remains underdeveloped given the size of our economies, with bilateral investment at about $7 billion and bilateral trade at just over $4 billion last year. India is currently our thirteenth-largest destination for merchandise exports and our nineteenth largest source of imports. The potential, however, is enormous. Our two prime ministers have committed to tripling the two countries' trade by 2015 to $15 billion.

Clearly, a free trade agreement could generate much more two-way business by dismantling the significant tariff, regulatory, and other barriers to commerce that currently limit opportunities. India continues to maintain relatively high tariffs on most imports. In 2009, India's average tariff rate was 13%, while Canada's average rate was 3.7%. In terms of products of interest to Canada, India's tariffs, for example, are as high as 10% for fertilizers, chemicals, wood products, pulp and paper, and helicopters; 30% for fish and seafood; and 30% to 50% on pulses, which currently enter the Indian market duty-free under a temporary measure but could be subject to India's high tariffs in the future.

The elimination of tariffs therefore could generate substantial opportunities for Canadian producers and exporters in a wide range of economic sectors. As well, we believe there are opportunities for Canadian workers and companies in the services sector, where 80% of new jobs in Canada are created today. More specifically, Canadian companies and their employees would stand to benefit from further liberalization of the Indian market in many sectors, including energy, mining services, financial services, environmental services, and transportation and infrastructure services, including architecture and engineering.

In November 2009, prime ministers Harper and Singh announced the formation of a joint study group to examine the feasibility and benefits of an economic partnership agreement.

In September 2010, the joint study was publicly released. The study concluded that a free trade agreement could boost Canada's economy by at least $6 billion, increase bilateral trade with India by 50%, and directly benefit Canadian sectors ranging from primary agricultural, resource-related and chemical products to transport equipment, machinery and equipment, and services.

As I indicated earlier, Canada's pro-trade agenda is also driven by the need to ensure that Canadian workers and companies can compete on a level playing field. India has already negotiated several trade agreements, including those with Chile, ASEAN, Korea, and most recently Japan. They are currently negotiating with New Zealand, Australia, and the European Union, and the queue is likely to continue to grow.

So where do the negotiations stand? Following the release of the joint study last fall, the prime ministers formally announced the launch of CEPA negotiations in November 2010. Negotiating rounds were subsequently held in November and in July. A third round of negotiations is planned for mid-December.

In terms of structure, seven negotiating tables have been established, covering the key areas of the negotiation. These are: goods, services, technical barriers to trade, sanitary and phytosanitary issues, origin procedures, customs and trade facilitation, and institutional issues.

We have also agreed that other areas as identified in the joint study may be discussed in future rounds. We have exchanged trade data, tariff information, and model text. Negotiators continue to work intersessionally.

India typically conducts its trade negotiations with a very small team. As a result, rounds with India will be shorter, more focused and more frequent than Canada's usual model. They will consist of three- to four-day sessions every two months between now and summer 2012.

The negotiations are clearly still at a very early stage and will require a lot of time. They will also be challenging, given the differing approaches that we have in some areas.

Based on consultations to date, the economic partnership agreement negotiations with India enjoy strong support from stakeholders in Canada, including provinces and territories, and we will continue to consult with and seek advice from stakeholders as we proceed.

Our aim is to move forward with ambition to ensure a forward-looking agreement that captures our current trades and helps strengthen the Canada-India economic relationship into the future. The negotiations with India are a high priority, and our target remains to complete negotiations in 2013, as indicated in the 2011 Speech From the Throne.

In conclusion, free trade negotiations are increasingly important for promoting Canadian interests around the world and for creating jobs and economic growth in Canada.

The Canada-India relationship is critical to the prosperity of Canadian businesses, workers and their families.

As indicated by Minister Fast's visit to India, the government is committed to deepening Canada's trade and investment ties with India. Canada has an ambitious trade negotiations agenda and the CEPA is a key element of that.

I thank the committee for this opportunity. My team and I look forward to hearing your views, which will inform our negotiations, and to responding to any questions.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much for that overview. I'm sure it has stimulated a few questions.

We'll start with Mr. Ravignat.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

I will first explain the context of my question. As you know, this government has gotten involved in the past to defend human rights internationally. You probably know better than I do that India holds the unfortunate record of the country with the most child workers. Although its government maintains that the country currently has only 10 million children under the age of 14 working, NGOs, and even United Nations, think that some 60 million children are actually working.

They work as newspaper and street vendors, restaurant helpers, and so on. They work in agriculture, forestry and even in manufacturing, especially in clothing production for the international market.

Can you tell me what the Canadian government plans to do in order to ensure that we are not doing business with companies and levels of government that are involved in child slavery?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

My negotiating mandate is to continue Canada's now-traditional approach in its trade negotiations. In other words, my job is to try to negotiate a side cooperation agreement with India on work-related issues.

That being said, I want to point out that India does not have a tradition of concluding agreements on work-related issues, at least when it comes to the actual wording of its trade agreements. Therefore, we'll have to talk to India about what can be done.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

So, you are confirming that this is a matter the government will bring to the negotiation table.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Child work in particular.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

Yes, we will discuss all the standards imposed by the International Labour Organization. I want to point out that Canada and India are already working together to promote acceptable working conditions. I know that Canada funded two recent projects with India to that end.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

What will the government do to ensure that Canadian companies doing business in India respect children's rights?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

Canada's policy is to promote the responsibility of Canadian companies. However, it will mostly be up to the Indian government to impose working conditions on Indian and Canadian companies.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

So, no punitive measures are planned for Canadian businesses using underage workers.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

No, not as part of the Canada-India comprehensive economic partnership agreement negotiations. You would probably have to ask an expert from the department responsible to find out more.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

As you know, India is dealing with a lot of corruption problems and they continue to grow. Recently, India had the 2G scam. This scandal weakened the Prime Minister's office and may have tarnished India's image abroad, especially with foreign investors.

According to the corruption perceptions index, India ranked 87th of 178 countries in 2010. When India talks about setting up an independent senior authority to fight corruption, should we be skeptical?

What impact could this independent senior anti-corruption authority have on trade negotiations between our two countries?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

Our international trade agreements mention corruption standards. Beyond that, I think we should just keep in mind the Indian government's efforts. We should maybe even invite someone who could talk about the issue on India's behalf.

Having said that, we are aware of the efforts and multiple initiatives undertaken by the Indian government to address the issue.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

I am going to share the rest of my time with Mr. Masse.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

During these discussions you've had, have you raised the asbestos issue or has it been raised by the Indian negotiators at this time?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

No, the issue has not yet been raised.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Well, is it going to be raised? What is the department's analysis about this agreement in increasing the trade of asbestos to India?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

The potential impact of the negotiations on asbestos trade would be to reduce the tariff that would apply to the import of asbestos in India. The current tariff I believe is 10% and there's a potential—not a certainty, but a potential—in the negotiations to reduce or eliminate that tariff. Otherwise, the negotiations wouldn't have an obvious impact on asbestos trade.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Okay.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Mr. Keddy.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to our witnesses.

I think I'm just looking for a little more clarification on the parallel labour agreement that Monsieur Ravignat started to discuss. My understanding of past negotiations is that, when we put a parallel agreement with labour in place, we work closely with the International Labour Organization, understanding that domestic laws within India are India's responsibility and jurisdiction. So there are some sensitivities there.

But we look for that general application of international labour standards, the elimination and prevention of regulatory regimes that assist and abet child labour, if you will, and respect for human rights within that, including things like maternity leave and the entire aspect of labour. Am I correct? I think that if we do that it will certainly help India's situation as it pertains to eliminating and getting out of the child labour business.

11:25 a.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-India Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

Yes, I think you have characterized our approach correctly. What we try to do to advance the application of international standards--essentially those established by the ILO, the International Labour Organization--is to provide for sanctions where countries do not adhere to their own domestic laws and the ILO standards. In our other agreements, sanctions have included financial penalties, and the moneys that are then paid are applied to efforts to advance those issues in the country.

As I noted, this has not been India's approach entering negotiations, although their model continues to evolve. Perhaps in their discussions with Canada, and perhaps in their discussions with the European Union, which shares similar objectives with Canada, we might be able to advance this set of issues.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

I think it's a legitimate question. I don't think anyone is denying that there is child labour in India and that anything we can do to advance its elimination is positive. I really think that more opportunities and more trade help to eliminate some of these practices around the world.

Simply in the way that these negotiations have been set up, I think there's a pretty good broad-based support, certainly in agriculture and commodities. We understand that India has a tremendous and growing population and a huge middle class that's getting larger and larger. I've been to India--actually, along with Mr. Stephenson--and I can tell you that they can't keep up to their infrastructure needs. Literally, they're growing faster than they can produce the waste-water and freshwater systems and the roadways and highways.

There should be an absolutely tremendous opportunity for Canadian business and expertise to help not just this economy but this nation to grow, and along with that you increase living standards, and you increase every possible sector, whether that's labour rules, regulations, living standards, access to health care, all of it that automatically follows.

I understand why we would have buy-in, but my question comes back to the size of the team. Having a small team I think would aid negotiations; I'm certain it would make them much more intense. But what about the results of the negotiations being applied? I understand that in Canada we can bring it to the House, have some fulsome debate, and have that applied throughout the country, but what about the provinces in India that traditionally have been independent and fairly trade restrictive in a number of areas?