International Trade Committee on March 27th, 2012

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

To start with the Carleton University event, I was there last evening, and it was very interesting. I wish there had been a more optimistic view than what you heard yesterday, and I assure you that at certain times in history we were very optimistic.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I don't want to interrupt you, but I do think there were some messages for the Government of Canada in that session yesterday, and I hope they take them to heart as well.

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

I wasn't one of the speakers, so I'll leave that to whoever spoke.

To convince you, we have to convince each other. We are committing to this as partners. My role is to shed light on what questions you might have. This is to the benefit of both our countries.

I know our economies are different. Canada's economy is—knock on wood—way better than Jordan's, but in the end we are going to be partners in the area. I'm not going to use the argument—which I agree with totally—that has been presented by DFAIT in their meeting here, but this is an opportunity for Canada to maintain its presence in the region. It's an opportunity for Canada to work with traditional competitors, as they've been described, within the region, but I say “partners”, because everybody is going to benefit, starting with Jordan.

We are learning with time the laws that you are talking about. I'm not saying that we just started knowing everything, but with time we are learning. We learn from our mistakes, and we learn from other people's experience.

The signing of the free trade agreement with Canada is similar to coming to the dining room after the work in the kitchen has been done. It came after 2009 when Jordan had already finished its commitment, its application of the laws within Jordan. I cannot claim that we have already reached the point of perfection; we always work for more and for better cases.

Our negotiation with the European Union is an example. Jordan was given advanced status in its relation with the EU. We were the second country after Morocco to obtain that status. That status is not given only for economic work; it expresses the work on committees that cover human rights, social affairs, and justice and security.

I'll just read to you the main points that were discussed. Under the social rights committee we covered social rights and social dialogue; social inclusion and social protection; employment policy; migration and asylum; development of human resources, education, training, and youth; and public health.

Under the justice and security subcommittee we covered the independence and impartiality of the judiciary; good governance and transparency; the fight against organized crime; the fight against human trafficking; the fight against drugs; money laundering; cooperation in the fight against terrorism and extremism; and development of adequate correctional centres conditions.

The third committee, a subcommittee under that agreement, was the human rights committee. Some of the subjects it covered were democracy and the rule of law; human rights and fundamental freedoms; the freedom of the media; freedom of expression; and freedom of association and assembly.

I'd be happy to provide the committee with copies of that.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

That would be helpful. These are useful committees.

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

After discussing all these matters, we came out with advanced status, so there is a process and there is progress.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you. He's a believer.

Mr. Shory is next.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ambassador, for coming to this committee this morning.

You can keep on convincing Mr. Easter and his friends from the other side. We are already convinced that free trade is always good. It creates jobs and it moves the economy in a positive way.

By signing this agreement, this government is ensuring that Canadian firms will be able to compete in the Jordanian market on an equal footing with firms from across the world. It was interesting when you made a comment on the energy supply from Egypt and how, if that fails, you go back to using diesel, which has an adverse effect on the environment. Would you comment on what Jordan's mining industry looks like and how the Canadian mining industry will have opportunities in that market?

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

To start with what has already been achieved, our potash industry in Jordan, our national company for potash, has been opened for a strategic partner, meaning it went under the process of privatization. Our Canadian partner owns 28% of the shares of that company. That's already established.

We have discovered uranium in abundance in Jordan, and that has opened new possibilities. We import 96% of our energy, and this discovery gave us ideas of peaceful nuclear energy. The Canadian technology, the CANDU, is the only technology that can use uranium without having to enrich it outside Jordan and bring it back in. We'll abide fully with the international agreements on non-proliferation and we'll be transparent.

We try to be an example in all we do. Whatever we do, we try to be an example in the region, so our nuclear program will be within that framework. We have hope in our uranium and we have hope in having partnerships. So far, the companies that want to work in Jordan have been shortlisted to three. One of them is a Canadian company. That's one of the major projects in mining that we have in Jordan.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

We understand that Jordan is a small country with a population of six million, but it is part of the Gulf Cooperation Council, which consists of countries that together have a population of 40 million or so, so it will be a huge opportunity. Also, once this agreement is implemented, I believe there will be an elimination of tariffs on a lot of stuff. I would like you to comment on what kind of tariff barriers and non-tariff barriers will be eliminated by this agreement, and how will it open the markets. After that, if we have some time, please try to convince Mr. Easter.

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

Thank you.

[Dr. Bashar Abu Taleb, First Secretary and Deputy Head of Mission, Embassy of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan]

Most of the tariff reductions will take effect immediately, but there are some that will go through progressive reduction and be phased out gradually.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

You have another couple of minutes, if you want.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Do you want to go ahead?

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you. I will. I just have a couple of quick comments.

We met on the 15th with a number of witnesses regarding the agreement, discussing everything from agriculture to labour to Nygård, which is actually a garment industry. Even though the labour organization had always come with some concerns, what's important is that they recognize the significant changes.

I thank you, Mr. Ambassador, for your clear comments about that. Not all of us, as Brian mentioned, are all there yet in every sector. I think the important part is that we continue to work towards improving conditions, always, for workers. I appreciate your comments on that subject.

I'm wondering, though, if you have some idea about the comments that since Jordan does not have a very big market, why are we interested in working with Jordan in a free trade agreement? We don't want to lose sight of the fact that there's always more than dollars involved in free trade. It's about relationships. It's about access. It's about logistics. It's about expansion, and being able to reach out. It's not just for Canada, but I'm suggesting also for Jordan, since you have a North American free trade....

Do you have any sense of the net impacts of the free trade agreement on Jordan? Do you have those numbers—the net impact for you, the positive?

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

The net impact of...?

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I mean the net impact of the free trade agreement between Canada and Jordan. This will be about dollars and cents.

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

Okay.

So far, the volume of trade between Canada and Jordan has risen to $100 million per year. We're looking forward to increasing it. If we want to go with the ratio that was applied to the free trade agreement with the U.S.—multiplying that by four—within four or five years, that's what we're looking for.

Other than that, we look for the interaction that we have between us. We have students who already come to study in Canada. Our laws in Jordan allow for dual citizenship, so you have people who are Jordanian and Canadian at the same time. They come here as students. Many of our community that I meet here are students who came to live here. Most of them are looking forward to going back to work.

It will open more areas of work and cover areas such as university studies and degrees. Now, if we have those people, with their knowledge of Canada and their ability to move between the two countries, we're putting high hopes on what they can produce for us.

I'm not here to boast, but when we look at the Jordanian community here, maybe our numbers are not high—officially, we have over 5,000 people, but we think we have more than that—then out of those, as part of our consular section, we try to reach Jordanians who might need help here, meaning prisoners, etc.

We found that of the prisoners who spend over two years, there are only two Jordanians who are in prison. We know that our relationship and our work together is....

I'm sorry if I'm taking too much time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Excuse me. That's fine. Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Côté.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ambassador, thank you for taking the time to answer our questions.

I attended the interparliamentary conference on the millennium development goals, in London, and I had the opportunity to talk to many of my parliamentary colleagues from Asia and Africa. They talked about how proud they were to be members of Parliament and to be able to move democracy forward in their countries. So I would like to pay tribute to His Majesty for the reforms that he has set up to improve the situation for his people.

Let me go back to the working conditions for immigrant workers. Clearly, after the special economic zones were created, Jordan received a large influx of foreign workers. In the March 21 issue of Embassy, you said that there is new legislation for the social protections of immigrant workers. Mr. Ambassador, would it be possible to provide the committee with a copy of the new legislation to compare it to the former one? Would you be able to submit that type of document?

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

Thank you very much.

Merci. My French is a little bit worse, so please bear with me.

You referred to His Majesty as “His Majesty”, and I thank you for that. In that particular article they referred to him as “Mr. Abdullah”, so that article was not really very accurate, but I respect whoever wrote it. Let's not dwell much on that.

There isn't a new law. It was shown as a new law that came out. There is not a new law; there are new applications, which I talked about. One of them is with regard to opening a bank account and one of them is to reinforce the checking on work.

The problem that used to exist in Jordan was in relation to domestic workers. They have to be welcomed in Jordan through two bureaus or agencies. One of them is Jordanian and the other one is local, from wherever the worker has come. Coming to Jordan, they are given a certain amount of pay, but it's more feasible for them to leave the houses where they are supposed to work and go into the market in Jordan to work in another industry, because they get paid more outside. One of the new applications increases their pay at the domestic house where they are supposed to work and where their contract is.

Having a domestic worker in Jordan entails two payments. One of them goes to the worker and the second has to go for his or her residency in Jordan during that time, which has to be paid to the government. Whoever pays it is the household that welcomes him or her.

If a domestic worker comes to a house and suddenly runs away, the person who brought him or her, let's say, does not feel obligated to pay for his or her residency in Jordan, and that's where the problem happens. The workers go out and work somewhere else, and when it's time for the worker to leave, the records will show that the worker or somebody who was supposed to pay for the worker did not pay. That would cause some problems in leaving the country.

In that, the workers' respective embassies were involved. Recently a number of those persons who were in that situation have had their situation somehow managed. Either the amount was paid or it was cancelled.

Thank you.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Ambassador, could the committee have a document that compares the new measures with the previous ones?

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

Sure, I'll work on that. It's a pleasure.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

I would now like to move on to another topic.

One of the most important measures that really support the status of workers is the right to freedom of association. The New Democratic Party has been advocating for that since its inception. I would like to talk about the various groups of employees, including gardeners, cooks, domestic workers and agricultural workers.

Could you describe their situation specifically and assure us that they are able to bargain collectively—simply put, to form groups that protect their rights collectively?

[H.E. Basheer Fawwaz Zoubi]

Thank you very much.

I think that also has been covered by the first question. It's not a matter of the origin of the worker; it's the industry itself, and the number of workers. The right of association is there and does exist, but it's not applicable in an industry that has a very limited number of people.

As I said, this is not the end of it. We are still working on that.

Maybe I'll give the floor to my colleague to read about the ILO.

[Dr. Bashar Abu Taleb]

Your Excellency, Jordan has ratified 24 ILO conventions, seven of which are fundamental conventions. Unfortunately, the convention on freedom of association was not part of those conventions.