International Trade Committee on April 24th, 2012

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I hope that didn't come out of my time.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do welcome the witnesses here. I actually was in Colombia just recently. It was sort of an interesting visit. It was not because of this committee. I was actually able to meet...I wasn't directed to any one in particular, but as I met with ordinary businesses, particularly those that are small and medium, and with local political people, they were very keen about the Canada-Colombia free trade agreement and what it would do to help boost them. I think that's always important to understand when you get on the ground. I didn't meet with President Santos, but I did meet with the local people, and I think that's always important for understanding.

I'm listening to the comments, and basically what I'm hearing, I think from both Mr. Rowlinson and Mr. Neil, is that somewhere out here we're looking for this perfect country. Your position, if I understand it right, is that we sit back and we wait until these countries raise the bar within themselves. At this stage, some of these countries are not wealthy countries, not like Canada. In fact I might say there are hardly any countries in the world like Canada, with the standard we have, with the economic diversity and the sustainability we have.

So I'm trying to understand. What we're trying to do...and what works is that we actually go and give countries an opportunity to increase their economic strength. Partly through that, and it witnesses in countries around the world...in fact I think in Canada—you may not agree—we have likely pretty sound labour laws.

Would you agree with that?

[Mark Rowlinson]

That's a large question.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Well, no, it's fairly simple. It's fairly simple. Do we have...or are your expectations toward a perfect labour law in Canada? We're not there yet, but are you looking for that same thing in Colombia or in Jordan right now? You're saying we've got to get them there first before we ever go into a trade agreement.

So it's actually a fairly straightforward question. I'm just wondering if you have a straightforward answer.

[Mark Rowlinson]

I'm not sure I understand the question, to be perfectly blunt about it. I'm not trying to be evasive, but—

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Well, you're kind of eating up my time.

[Mark Rowlinson]

Sorry.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I thought it was fairly clear, actually.

[Garry Neil]

What I would argue is that there are internationally recognized norms, for example, in the field of labour and labour law, and Jordan has agreed to those and they ought to meet that standard, and if they meet that standard then they pass that bar.

In our view, they do not meet that standard.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

So in the international standards...the laws actually say they have to meet that standard before any free trade agreement can ever come into place? You're nodding your head but you're not saying anything.

[Mark Rowlinson]

Yes, that's what I would argue. Yes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

You would argue it. Is that actually what it says?

[Garry Neil]

What it says where?

[Mark Rowlinson]

No. It doesn't say that, no.

[Garry Neil]

No.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

No, you're saying the international labour laws...okay, then they don't have to be at that standard before a free trade agreement is in place. So actually what a free trade agreement does, folks, is allow the country to diversify and get economic strength so that it might actually get to a point where it has great labour laws, like in Canada.

I have a question, though, when you talk about the labour laws. This might be to Mr. Rowlinson. This is what I don't understand. And I know there are provincial labour laws. So when we talk about having a standard in Jordan in labour laws, does that mean it would only be that they would be for unions?

Let me give you an example. Should a company here...and I'm trying to think of the word you used, have the opportunity to have...I forget the word. I should have written it down. Here, actually, if there is a business, and a union targets that business as one where it wants to set up a union shop, it can come in and do its lobbying and do its meetings and whatever. But in the one or two cases I've been involved with, if anybody else wants to promote non-union because of maybe the benefits of it or whatever, they actually can't do that. Is that fair treatment of labour? Would they have the same opportunity to voice an opinion against a labour union as a labour union would to oppose those companies not having one?

[Mark Rowlinson]

I've been practising labour law in Canada for 17 years. The reality is that workers choose whether to have a union or not. Workers are entitled to express their opinions in the workplace or outside the workplace as to whether they want to sign a union membership card or not.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I guess I'm out of time. I think the chairman took some of it at the start, complimenting our team here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

We'll allow a quick answer.

Do you have anything to add to that?

[Mark Rowlinson]

The fact is that Canada increasingly doesn't reflect ILO. It doesn't respect ILO core labour standards either, as far as the right to strike and freedom of association. But we like to think that in Canada workers and trade unions have at least some mechanisms by which to try to enforce those rights. In Jordan it's less clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Fair enough.

Mr. Côté.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Just like my esteemed colleague, Gerald Keddy, I think that nothing is perfect in this world. However, I disagree with him completely when he says that this agreement, which was negotiated with the Kingdom of Jordan, could not be improved. On the contrary, I think that that reveals the government's total absence of will in that regard.

Do you think we could find some way of improving the agreement? I don't want to make you repeat anything, but I think you mentioned several possible interesting solutions. Do you sincerely think that the agreement which was negotiated with the Kingdom of Jordan could be improved?

[Garry Neil]

I believe that if a human rights impact assessment were done prior to entering into the agreement, it would reveal a number of things. If you improved the environmental side agreement and the labour side agreement, it would certainly make it better. Then we would look at the outcome and balance that against the reality that still prevails that there are significant problems in Jordan.

I'm not sure if that answers the question or is as definitive as you'd like it to be, but we would urge you to make recommendations to try to improve it.

[Mark Rowlinson]

I agree with that. I could go on at length about specific clauses I would change, and so on. I'm not sure that would benefit. I think there needs to be an overall impact assessment on these kinds of agreements. Then there needs to be a more inclusive, transparent, and democratic process by which these agreements are conceived and then negotiated.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, gentlemen. I am led to conclude that had there not been a will to improve industrial workers' conditions during the Victorian era, that type of condition may have been perpetuated right up till today.

Mr. Chairman, I am going to give the rest of my time to my colleague, Marc-André Morin.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

I'll give you two and a half minutes.