Evidence of meeting #66 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
So it isn't just the bureaucrats and politicians.
Well, good luck to you in business, both of you, and thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Marc-André Morin NDP Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Mr. Ghuman, thank you for your personal story. Though it must have been pretty hard for you at the time, that was pretty interesting and entertaining.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Marc-André Morin NDP Laurentides—Labelle, QC
It seems that there's a big difference between India's central government and those of the states. Is there or should there be an involvement from the state governments in those negotiations?
4:35 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, there can be, and there has been in the past. The problem is this. In the state government, if there is a congress, things will go well, but if in the state government it's a different government, then there's a problem. Not only that, the central government has bureaucrats who work in the centre and they are the ones who implement rules there and everything for the state. They are the main people who can tell the state secretaries and ministers what to do or this is how it is. Actually, the main strings are in the central government's hands, not in the states'. In the states there are no laws. There are no rules. They do break the rules. They do make their own laws and they can do whatever they want to do. That is our concern. That is what Mr. Dhesi also said. They will take our passports away in case there is some problem.
There are no inquiries. There are no investigations. One gentleman can say, “Mr. Ghuman, he swore at me” or “He threatened me.” There's an FIR, a first information report. Immediately they will say, “Okay, Mr. Ghuman, give us your passport”, or they'll take me aside, “Mr. Ghuman, give us 10,000 rupees or 50,000 rupees, and we'll take care of this gentleman. Don't worry.” This is how it is. This is what we're talking about.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Marc-André Morin NDP Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Do you think it's our duty, as government, when we sign an agreement to make sure it applies with the country with which we sign an agreement?
4:35 p.m.
As an Individual
It is our government's duty to protect Canadian citizens and their investments. Or even if I'm not an investor, if I'm going to visit there and there are some problems, the Canadian government, or the Canadian embassy should protect Canadian citizens from any wrongdoing whatsoever.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Marc-André Morin NDP Laurentides—Labelle, QC
If a Canadian citizen goes to India with $10 million or $15 million to invest and he gets ripped off, should there be protection for that?
4:35 p.m.
As an Individual
The government cannot protect all the $10 million or $15 million. A person should have a sense about investing where he is investing; he should know. What I meant is the harassment. In the long run, it's the harassment. And I'm talking about not only the harassment, I'm talking about when people are very successful, that is where some bureaucrats or some state ministers or the chief minister—the premier is known as a chief minister—or their right-hand or left-hand—you know what I mean—they'll approach you and say, “Here, Mr. Ghuman.” I can give you so many examples. I can give you the latest example. A person who was doing so well has been threatened with, “Take me as a partner in the business or we will close it.” It's not only one place, but three places where I know them very, very well.
4:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I'm going to add one more thing. Just as an example, I won't name anybody, but that businessman has about 500-plus people working for him in that state. The state deputy chief minister threatened him. Now he is moving his business from this state to another state, and he was going to expand his business by hiring another 1,000-plus people. He has been doing business there for over 40 years. Now they have decided to move from this state to another one, and that state will give them some subsidies to bring the business into their state. Gujarat or Himachal Pradesh provide subsidies. Even we as foreigners invest there. They will give us a break on so many things.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
In the limited time that I have I'll ask a number of questions, and I'll try to have you keep the answers as brief as possible.
Mr. Ghuman, you talked a lot about corruption and abuse of power in India. Have you been operating your businesses in multiple states, or mostly in one state?
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Is it your belief that the problems you have been outlining are rampant beyond those two states, or is it really centred in those areas?
4:40 p.m.
As an Individual
No, no, in other states there is a problem too—in Haryana, for example. If you go anywhere there are problems. Only a couple of states are good, such as Gujarat. Gujarat is good; you don't have to pay too much money to move your files. It is there, but it's not as bad as in Punjab.
I'll give you another example, a small one. A Caucasian friend of mine, a white Caucasian, went with me from here to India to set up a winery there. We spent almost four weeks there. The moment he found out that the bureaucrat said, “Okay, I need under the table this much money”, that gentleman, my friend cum partner, said, “No, no, Jas, I can't do this.”
We have a system here, and people don't like to do that. That was about 12 years ago. There was no winery in that state, and....
Go ahead.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
On the subject matter of labour standards, when Canada negotiates agreements with other countries, there's often a clause or subsection that deals with labour standards. We had that with Jordan.
I know that the Indian constitution has outlawed discrimination and the caste system, but I'm wondering, from your experience more practically, if that is something that the Canadian government needs to be concerned about—discrimination in labour issues.
4:40 p.m.
President, Pacific Exotic Food Inc.
The laws are there. The question we are trying to explain on our side is that all kinds of laws are there, but the bureaucrats and the politicians in all the regions don't follow the law.
Today I seek protections. My main discussion with this committee lies there: how can we be protected when we do business in India, from here to there?
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Okay.
You also mentioned, Mr. Ghuman, in your opening remarks, that you've done some investment in commercial properties. We've had previous witnesses tell us that Canadian companies cannot invest in real estate. Individuals can, but Canadian companies are restricted, at least on a portfolio basis.
Can you elaborate on what available opportunities there are for Canadian companies or individuals in real estate?
4:45 p.m.
As an Individual
Canadian companies can invest in India, yes, and some of them, if I'm not mistaken, have.
