Evidence of meeting #9 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was generic.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Cardegna  Clerk of the Committee, Standing Committee on International Trade
Barry Fishman  Chair, Canadian Generic Pharmaceutical Association, and President and Chief Executive Officer, Teva Canada
Kathleen Sullivan  Executive Director, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance
Derek Butler  Executive Director, Association of Seafood Producers
Jim Keon  President, Canadian Generic Pharmaceutical Association
Russell Williams  President, Canada's Research-Based Pharmaceutical Companies (Rx & D)
Brigitte Nolet  Director, Government Relations and Health Policy, Specialty Division, Hoffmann-La Roche Limited, Canada's Research-Based Pharmaceutical Companies (Rx & D)
Wally Smith  President, Dairy Farmers of Canada
John Masswohl  Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
Declan Hamill  Chief of Staff and Vice-President, Legal Affairs, Canada's Research-Based Pharmaceutical Companies (Rx & D)

12:25 p.m.

President, Canada's Research-Based Pharmaceutical Companies (Rx & D)

Russell Williams

The sort of investment that Brigitte has just mentioned is the track record of our industry. Each time the government has moved forward, we have responded.

In fact, changes in the Patent Act from 1987 have resulted in an increase of 1,500% in terms of R and D. Despite negative changes in the Canadian environment, we have honoured our commitment to Canada since that time by investing back 10% of our annual sales in R and D. But we want to do more.

Improved IP for our sector will promote and accelerate the translation of today's ideas into tomorrow's medicines and vaccines, whether it's cancer, Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, infectious diseases, or chronic pain. But we give a pledge to Canada, too. We will continue to work in collaboration with all governments to improve our health care system. We will continue to attract and work our hardest to bring in new investments to Canada.

Working together, I believe our country is poised to show the world just what Canada can really do. We must seize this opportunity that CETA gives us.

We appreciate the opportunity to have this dialogue. We are open for questions and answers.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We will now move to Mr. Smith from the Dairy Farmers of Canada.

12:25 p.m.

Wally Smith President, Dairy Farmers of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We're pleased to have been invited to appear before the trade committee today.

I have been on the board of the Dairy Farmers of Canada for the past 10 to 11 years. I served on the executive for seven years as vice-president, and I was recently elected president in July. I farm in British Columbia, so I'm actually an owner-operator-producer--a really genuine, live dairy farmer.

You may not know this, but DFC is the national lobby, policy, and promotion organization representing farmers in Canada. We represent approximately 13,000 farmers. We are run by producers for producers. We fund all operations, including promotional activities.

While Canadian dairy farmers concentrate our efforts on the domestic market, essentially selling 100% of our production to satisfy the Canadian market, we recognize that international trade talks are an important aspect when it comes to maintaining both the integrity of the Canadian supply management system in the future as well as opportunities for the export sectors.

Trade talks, whether at the World Trade Organization or at bilateral talks such as CETA, have the potential of affecting our import control measures and the possibility of compromising the integrity of our system. We are supportive of the government's position on trade, and we do not dispute the importance of trade. We believe that from a trade perspective it's important for the country to gain extra economic activity, but at the same time we have to remember that our supply-managed system creates 20% of all cash receipts for the agricultural economy in Canada.

We are sustainable. We are proud that we create rural activity, and we see ourselves as job sustainers. Earlier this year, EcoRessources released a study of economics by the Canadian industry on the Canadian economy. We have provided highlights in our submission, but I'd just like to say it adds $15.2 billion to the gross domestic product and $3 billion in tax revenues--$1.8 billion federally, $0.09 billion provincially, and $0.03 billion municipally. We also sustain a total of 215,000 jobs. We employ directly in full-time equivalents approximately 51,000 jobs in dairy production itself on the farm.

In the dairy sector itself we produce 73,500 full-time equivalent jobs. Compare that to the aeronautics sector in Canada, with 78,000 jobs, or GM, with 9,000 jobs. This is all data taken from an EcoRessources study that was just completed a little while ago.

Given the importance of Canada's domestic market, we need to make sure it continues to be a prosperous marketplace for Canadian producers.

On trade, I have said we strongly support the Canadian government's balanced position. It was redefined following the adoption of a November House of Commons motion on supply management vis-à-vis the WTO, unanimously supported by all parties. It states that at the end of the current round of negotiations, Canada will obtain results that ensure that the supply management sectors are subject to no reduction in over-quota tariffs and no increase in market access.

We have thanked the Canadian government for their firm and consistent support, articulated by the Minister of Trade, the Minister of Agriculture, and even Mr. Keddy, in support of supply management in the CETA round of negotiations. We encourage the government to support and be consistent, as they have been the last little while.

The EU will continue to press hard for more access, especially in the butter and cheese market. I have to remind the committee that we already import approximately 10 times more cheese into the Canadian market, which is 15 times smaller than the European market, than we actually export to Europe. That is an important fact.

Another concern, Mr. Chair, that I'd like to raise very briefly is the one around geographical indications. The potential for a negative impact on cheese production in Canada is very real. Both processors and producers recognize the fact that if we are unable to continue to manufacture and process some of the cheeses that are currently produced in Canada—like parmesan and feta—we are going to run into difficulty, and we'll have economic pain as a result of our lack of ability to continue to produce these cheeses.

Thank you again for allowing us to appear today.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Now we'll hear from the Canadian Cattlemen's Association. We have John, in Calgary.

John, are we coming through all right?

12:30 p.m.

John Masswohl Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Yes, I can hear you great. Thank you very much.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

The floor is yours.

I call him John because we met in the airport and we've gone through this, and we've known each other for a long time.

Go ahead.

12:30 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

We certainly appreciate not just the opportunity to be here but the accommodation to do it by video conference. It is important to us because the Canada-Europe comprehensive economic and trade agreement represents the most significant opportunity in a generation to create new market access for Canadian beef exports.

Annual beef consumption in the European Union is approximately 8 million tonnes, or actually a little bit more than that. Unfortunately, Canada ships very little beef to Europe due to many layers of barriers that prevent Canadian beef from realizing its full potential in that market. There are both tariff and technical barriers. All layers have to be addressed in this negotiation to produce meaningful access.

The Canadian Cattlemen’s Association strongly supports the CETA negotiations. Whether we support the final agreement is really going to depend on whether it provides meaningful access for beef. I would like to provide you with a sense of the barriers that Canadian beef faces and that need to be addressed.

I'm going to start with the tariff situation. The European Union maintains a prohibitively high tariff on beef imports. The most favoured nation duty rate, or the MFN—and that's the rate established under the WTO—is prohibitively high. It's 12.8% of the value, plus an additional amount that ranges from €2,211 to €3,041 per tonne, depending on what the cut of beef is. This really works out to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of a 140% tariff, and virtually no trade can take place at that tariff level.

In the past, whenever the European Union has relaxed or eliminated the tariff, it has done so only up to a limited quota amount, very similar to what Mr. Butler, from the seafood industry, described. They refer to that as a tariff rate quota, or a TRQ. There are currently two small TRQs that are open to Canadian beef and to other suppliers of high-quality grain-fed beef, so we share those TRQs.

One of them is for 11,500 tonnes at a 20% rate of duty, and the other is for 21,500 tonnes at 0%, or a duty-free rate. That 21,500 tonnes at 0% TRQ was recently created as compensation for what is commonly referred to as the EU hormone ban. And this TRQ is expected to rise to 48,200 tonnes by mid-2012, pending the fulfillment of some technical conditions. So at this point we don't necessarily have a guarantee that it is going to rise to that amount.

As these existing quotas are extremely small in relation to the import demand, a grey market has developed where speculator companies are able to obtain quota allocations and then resell their allocations to the actual importers. This practice has become a new de facto tariff. We calculate it at somewhere in the neighbourhood of 17% to 20% extra cost. Therefore, we are very concerned that any agreement under the CETA to create a TRQ smaller than the EU import demand is going to have this TRQ tariff effect.

The Canadian beef sector is really not interested in perpetuating this problem in the CETA, and therefore we are seeking unlimited duty-free access in the CETA.

That's the tariff side. But as Kathleen mentioned in the first panel, we also face significant non-tariff technical issues.

I did mention the so-called hormone ban. Any beef sold in the EU must come from animals raised without the use of growth promotants. This is often referred to as the hormone ban, even though it also bans other non-hormone growth promotants such as beta-agonists, which are safely approved and widely used in Canada and in the United States. Nevertheless, the Canadian beef sector can live with this EU condition as long as real, meaningful market access makes it worth our while.

The protocol for proving that Canadian cattle are in compliance with this requirement also needs to be modernized. At a minimum, we need to obtain improvements that are already utilized by United States cattle producers to raise U.S. beef for the EU market.

Some EU conditions for harvesting meat from livestock are incompatible with Canadian standards. The most significant is the EU prohibition on Canadian antimicrobial protocols, such as carcass washes. These are protocols that we use to make sure that the beef people eat is safe, and we're seeking approval of Canadian processing conditions by the European Union.

We require the recognition that the Canadian meat processing system is equivalent to the EU system in producing safe, acceptable meat even if some specific procedures may be different. There was a good discussion on the earlier panel about the difference between harmonization and equivalence. We feel that the EU should approve the Canadian federal system and all facilities operating under the federal system should be authorized to export to the EU.

In closing, it is clear that we have significant challenges in this negotiation, but we feel the rewards are worth the effort and the objectives we have outlined are achievable.

Before I take your questions, I would support Mr. Butler's dining suggestion earlier, that you have a little seafood, but I would also suggest it would be a little more enjoyable if you had it on the side of a nice piece of beef.

12:35 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Being from Alberta, I would recommend Alberta beef, of course.

Mr. Chisholm, the floor is yours.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you very much, and again my apologies that we're not going to have the time available to us to pay attention to all the important issues you have brought before us.

I want to go back to the IP issue on pharmaceuticals. It is important that you understand that when we raise the issues about the $2.8 billion, we're not against innovation. We're not against the work that the brand-name pharmaceuticals do. By no stretch of the imagination is that the case.

However, what I want to know is how are my province of Nova Scotia, this country, and the people in it going to absorb an extra $2.8 billion? If that's not going to happen, then somebody tell me that. Give me some facts to contradict that or tell me that the benefits brought on by the investments by the brand names are going to offset that. I have not heard any of that in this debate. I've talked to the government; I've talked to some of your representatives, and my constituents and other people across this country are concerned about the impact this is going to have on our health care system.

I want to get right down to what we are talking about in terms of cost here, please. I say that with the greatest respect.

12:40 p.m.

President, Canada's Research-Based Pharmaceutical Companies (Rx & D)

Russell Williams

I understood and received it that way, and if we need more time later on, we'll certainly get together.

I appreciate the question, because we're all interested in trying to handle health care costs. I have to say, though, that the figure you were using is unfounded. It is based on all kinds of false information; no country in the world uses weak IP to try to control health care costs. There are other ways to do it, and our industry is very interested in partnering with Nova Scotia and other provinces to work at the whole sustainability issue.

I believe it is through better use, etc., but this number that's been floated around has been discredited by a number of other studies, and we can submit them and the government folks can study them and you can come to your own conclusion. This whole notion that prices will skyrocket...this has been done in the 1980s and 1990s, and history has proven that wrong. It hasn't, and on top of that, in Canada we have a pricing review board that controls our prices. Generic companies aren't controlled, but we are.

Ultimately there has to be room for both of us. We have to create a stable environment for innovation. You said you support innovation. We have to be able to build that so our universities, our research communities, and our health care system can benefit from it, but at the end of patents, generics can move around. It is not us and them. It's if we can get the total package together, Canada can soar.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Exactly, but you see the--

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Your time is gone, I'm sorry.

Ms. Leitch, you have three minutes.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

My question is also for you, Mr. Williams.

Compared to the European Union, when we look at Canada's position in generating new knowledge-based jobs for Canada, without having strong IP laws, what kind of impact do you think that would have, and how is having strong IP going to help us in generating those knowledge-based jobs here in Canada so that Canadians can benefit?

12:40 p.m.

President, Canada's Research-Based Pharmaceutical Companies (Rx & D)

Russell Williams

I'll ask Brigitte to complement my answer.

When companies decide where to invest and bring jobs, they consider a number of factors: infrastructure, quality of the research, access to the health care system, and a number of other factors. IP is one of them.

The size of the market is important, too. Canada is a relatively small market. We want an equal IP regime. All we are asking for is an equalized playing field to give our Canadian CEOs, those champions that have to battle at their head offices for those research dollars, another tool to win some of those contracts.

The announcement at Roche of $200 million, which Brigitte will talk about, I don't want to be the exception. I want it to be the rule. I would like the $1.3 billion we invest right now to grow, and to grow as large as it can. IP will help us do that. Without it, companies will say, yes, we have good infrastructure and, yes, we have good scientists, but we don't have the IP to protect that research.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Without equalized IP, how many jobs are we going to lose here in Canada?

12:45 p.m.

President, Canada's Research-Based Pharmaceutical Companies (Rx & D)

Russell Williams

We've seen it being whittled away. It's a quiet death by a thousand cuts. Other research areas are getting it. We spend about $100 billion a year on research around the world. Every jurisdiction is absolutely doing its best to try to get it. When we try to win those contracts, we have to use what's working well for us to convince them not to go to another jurisdiction. We are losing it.

This is not about loss. It's about the great potential in Canada. Canada is poised to do that.

12:45 p.m.

Director, Government Relations and Health Policy, Specialty Division, Hoffmann-La Roche Limited, Canada's Research-Based Pharmaceutical Companies (Rx & D)

Brigitte Nolet

I would like to add to that point. As a global company, and as a member company of Rx&D, we know that IP is about protecting new ideas. It's about helping us discover the undiscovered. It is about helping us compete globally. It's about helping us bring this research to Canada and about making Canada part of the research continuum. It's putting our footprint on future therapies that will save lives in the world and in Canada.

For us, absolutely, it is an important part of that list of factors our global CEOs deal with.

There is no doubt that with our investment opportunity, there were other affiliates saying, “Whatever Canada does, we're going to match. We will do exactly what they do.” Not all of them have the same policies in place, and that's where we have the advantage. We have policies in place. And we have policies we can improve now that will keep us ahead of the curve and will help us compete with our European affiliates.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Easter.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, and thank you to the witnesses.

One of the problems we have at committee is knowing what's actually on the table. The minister, when he was before us, quoted from a study that was done prior to negotiations on the benefits side. It was kind of a wish list, if you would.

What's the last draft? Do you folks actually know what's on the table, or are we playing a guessing game here? What would be the last draft any of the groups would have seen in terms of the negotiations?

October 27th, 2011 / 12:45 p.m.

President, Canada's Research-Based Pharmaceutical Companies (Rx & D)

Russell Williams

We haven't seen it. What we are seeing is that as we are talking about creating a free trade environment, this is a golden opportunity for Canada to be in a privileged position to do that research that will save lives and improve our health care system. Here's an opportunity, with or without CETA. I'd like us to do it long before, but we don't know what's on the table.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Wally, have you seen it?

12:45 p.m.

President, Dairy Farmers of Canada

Wally Smith

Mr. Chairman, the government is negotiating this deal. I believe that the positions the government is articulating are the ones we have confidence in. And at the end of the day, we will see a draft.

Thank you.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

John, I will come to you in a second.

In terms of the supply management industries, Wally, we had the minister here. Yes, they spout consistently that they support supply management, but as you and I both know, supply management operates on three pillars. When he was asked the question on tariffs and import controls, he failed to answer. I would suggest that the minister be asked those questions by the dairy industry.

John, have you seen a draft?

12:45 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

No, we haven't seen any drafts of anything. That would be normal in negotiations. We don't usually expect to see the drafts. What we do expect is close collaboration with the negotiators. We've been doing that with the federal negotiators and the provincial negotiators to make sure they know what our positions are.

Kathleen was right in her comments earlier, on the first panel, that beef is going to be one of the difficult things that is left to the end. My understanding is that they haven't really broken the ice yet on what the access for beef is going to be.