Evidence of meeting #14 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was union.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marie-Anne Coninsx  Ambassador, Delegation of the European Union to Canada
Karsten Mecklenburg  Head, Economic, Commercial and Trade Section, Delegation of the European Union to Canada
Cristina Falcone  Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada
Mark Nantais  President, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

We'd like to call the meeting to order.

We're continuing our study on the Canada-European Union comprehensive economic and trade agreement, CETA.

We have the privilege today of having with us Her Excellency the Ambassador for the EU. We want to welcome you to Canada in your recent appointment, and we thank you for being with us. You are joined by a colleague, Mr. Mecklenburg.

Mr. Mecklenburg, thank you very much for being here as well.

We look forward to your comments and then to getting into questions and answers. This is a great agreement between our respective jurisdictions. There's been a lot of debate and a lot of negotiation, and it's great to be able to see this signed. We now move on to the next process, which is moving it through our respective parliaments after translation and legal scrubs.

With that, we will yield you the floor and listen to your comments. Then we'll get into questions and answers.

11 a.m.

H.E. Marie-Anne Coninsx Ambassador, Delegation of the European Union to Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everybody, honourable members.

I am extremely pleased to be here. I want to thank you very much for making it possible for me to appear at this hearing.

I started my nearly 30-year career with the European institution as a parliamentary assistant. For 15 years I dealt with relations with the European Parliament, so I really feel at home. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to appear here.

The object of the hearing is to speak about CETA. CETA is the most comprehensive, ambitious agreement the European Union will have ever concluded. It took a little bit more than four years to negotiate. Some people might say that's a lot. I would say it's not a lot for such a comprehensive agreement, which included, from your side—and a very positive element—the involvement of all the provinces, and from our side, the European Union, 28 member states. Coming to this result after four years is really a very good deal.

This agreement will bring very clear benefits to both parties, Canada and the European Union. I know there has been quite a lot of speculation around the increase in trade. I don't want to give an answer to these speculations, but in our vast experience as the European Union, with all the FTAs that we have concluded, and especially the most recent ones, the moment we have an FTA, the moment it enters into force, it immediately brings benefits to both parties and it immediately boosts trade considerably.

Why is this agreement, this comprehensive trade agreement, the most ambitious agreement today that we have reached? The agreement itself contains some parts that are typical of a traditional FTA. There is abolition of tariffs for industrial goods and for agricultural goods. Before CETA, or currently, the tariffs were or are not very high between Canada and the European Union. But even if it is only 3% or 4%, when you go to zero, it's evident that this will bring quite a lot of advantages.

There will be an elimination of the tariffs on practically all industrial goods, and almost all agricultural tariffs on some products that are still sensitive, notably those in the dairy sector, which will be subject to some transition periods or to some quotas.

It will also bring benefits to consumers. There will be more competition, more offers to consumers, cheaper prices. This includes consumers from both sides.

Services will be liberated in our bilateral trade to a large extent. CETA will facilitate investment on both sides by removing investment barriers. This is a new competency the European Union got a couple of years ago. They have an exclusive competency to negotiate an investment protection agreement, on behalf of all the member states.

A very important point that I stress in all the interventions I make on CETA is that CETA will deal with the abolition of non-trade barriers, such as technical, sanitary, and phytosanitary regulations. I want to stress this, because though the tariffs were not very high, there were and still are quite a lot of non-technical barriers. If those are abolished, small and medium-sized enterprises will particularly profit. I think this is a major advantage. It will save companies on both sides of the Atlantic enormous efforts and enormous costs.

CETA is not only a classic free trade agreement. As I said, it's an ambitious, comprehensive trade agreement. It is what we call a “new generation” trade agreement. Why? Because it also deals with elements such as procurement, intellectual property, geographical indicators, and movement of people.

Regarding procurement, CETA will provide an opening of the procurement at the sub-federal level—the provincial and municipal levels. The advantages are clear: more competition, cheaper prices, and open and transparent government spending that will lead to better value for money for our taxpayers. But I also have to make clear that there is a threshold. The municipalities will continue to buy locally below the thresholds. Also, I have to stress that in this regard all foreign contractors will always have to comply with local labour and environmental laws. As well, this chapter is reciprocal, so I would say that it's opening procurement not only in Canada, but also in Europe, although in Europe there is already a very open procurement market.

Intellectual property is also a key element of the agreement for us. CETA contains provisions on intellectual property that are important to the European Union, such as patent protection for medicines. Why is it important? Because we believe that adequate intellectual property is necessary. It's necessary due to the high research costs that lead to the research in these medicines and these drugs, and it's necessary to reinvest funds in new projects to improve health. We also believe that this intellectual property will benefit research-based Canadian companies. Again, because I've heard that some concerns have been expressed, in our experience within the European Union we also have publicly funded health care systems like those here in Canada. We manage to keep drug prices pretty well under control while at the same time ensuring high protection and stimulating research. So intellectual property is very important.

On geographical indicators, we are very pleased that Canada and the EU have been able to agree on protection of European Union geographical indicators. This will definitely lead to an increase in consumption of genuinely delicious European foods in the Canadian market.

Finally, on the features of CETA, I would say that it will bring people together. An important element is the temporary mobility of high-skilled workers, which was of paramount importance for Canada given the large direct investment Canada has in the European Union. Canada is the fourth largest investor in the European Union, so this temporary mobility of workers is important. That is combined with another element that is very important, which is the recognition of professional qualifications that will facilitate the movement of professionals.

I would not be the ambassador of the European Union if I did not give you some positive and realistic PR about the strength of the European Union market. I'm not saying this because I'm paid for it, but because I'm a convinced European. The European Union is the largest and strongest economy in the world.

It's a market with 500 million consumers. It is the most integrated market in the world. It's a market with free movement of persons, goods, capital, and services, which means, for example, for a product from Canada entering into the European market—wherever it enters, in Rotterdam, Antwerp, or in other places—it can be freely and automatically marketed throughout the whole European Union, a market which, I repeat, is a market of 500 million consumers. It's a very highly competitive market. I always say that if you make it there, you make it everywhere. Also, it's known that the European Union has a very strong legal system, which ensures that the laws, the legal aspects, will be respected.

All of this, I would say, also offers tremendous economies of scale to Canadian companies.

Another aspect of what CETA will bring is that the European Union is the largest trading bloc in the world. We are the first trading partner for 80 countries worldwide, compared, for example, with the U.S., which is the first trading partner for 20 countries. We are the first for 80 countries. For Canada, we are the second trading partner; I don't have to say what the first one is. By expanding our network of free trade agreements, if we include CETA, 50% of the European Union's trade will be covered by free trade agreements. If we succeed with the U.S., where, as you know, we are currently negotiating a transatlantic trade and investment partnership agreement, 75% of the trade of the European Union will be covered by free trade agreements. Regarding these negotiations with the U.S., I think the fact is that we already have CETA now in any case, and we have a political breakthrough. It will take some time before it enters into force, but CETA, compared with the American agreement, will definitely offer a considerable first-mover advantage to Canadian companies in the European Union market.

But it is very clear that the European Union and Canada will have to work together to ensure that CETA will bring benefits. To have an agreement on its own is not sufficient. You have to work together. You have to give it visibility. You have to promote it. You have to explain it. You have to advocate what the new opportunities are. Here as well, I think the Canadian government and the European Union are doing quite a lot to advocate and to explain what it means.

Again, I want to stress that it will be of huge importance to do this advocacy and explaining for small and medium-sized enterprises. Big companies don't need this. They already know this very well. Small and medium-sized enterprises in particular are the backbone of our economies. Therefore, we need to work together, and I have absolutely no doubt that we will succeed.

Finally, as a conclusion, Mr. Chair, I want to say that I know this hearing is focused only on trade and economies, but I would not be the ambassador of the European Union without highlighting the point that the relationship with the European Union is not only about trade and economics. Canada is a strategic partner of the European Union, and the European Union only has 10 strategic partners worldwide.

We work very closely together with Canada in many other fields, such as external relations, scientific knowledge, and education, to name only a few. Also, we share the same values. We have very strong cultural ties and ties of friendship. We are very strong allies and partners. With CETA, I think we will be even stronger, which will be to the benefit not only of both countries and of business, but also of our people.

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much. I couldn't agree with you more.

We'll now move to questions and answers. We'll start with Mr. Davies.

The floor is yours.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Ambassador Coninsx, for taking time out of your busy schedule to be here with us today. Welcome to the committee.

Ambassador, I wonder if you could briefly tell us, from the European Union's point of view, which industrial sectors are expected to benefit the most from CETA.

11:15 a.m.

Ambassador, Delegation of the European Union to Canada

H.E. Marie-Anne Coninsx

Actually, I think all sectors will benefit from it. Although we already have quite a lot of trade, I would say, industrial goods will definitely benefit. The automobile sector, the manufacturing sector, the medical sector, and the service sector will profit, as will the agriculture sector. For both sides, but particularly for the European Union, I would say that we will have the possibility to export more of our dairy products, which at the moment cannot enter the Canadian market either because of the geographical indicators or because of the very high price.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

Conversely, it's generally accepted that in most free trade deals there are trade-offs. There are winners and losers. Have there been any sensitivities or any industrial sectors in the European Union that expect to not do well under CETA?

11:15 a.m.

Ambassador, Delegation of the European Union to Canada

H.E. Marie-Anne Coninsx

To be honest, no. I'm quite frank about it. I think this is a win-win situation for everybody.

I know that when the breakthrough agreement was announced, in the press it was mentioned that some of the sectors will be touched. I double-checked that with Brussels, and we did not have negative noise coming from the European side.

I think also that's because the Canadians have been doing a very good job in some of the difficult sectors by lobbying within the European Union to prepare sectors where there might be a problem. To mention one, for example, there is the beef sector. The Canadian beef producers have been extremely active in lobbying, and we did not hear any negative noises.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

Which particular countries in the European Union do you think will increase their trade with Canada the most?

11:15 a.m.

Ambassador, Delegation of the European Union to Canada

H.E. Marie-Anne Coninsx

That's very difficult to predict, because it's up to the companies to use the agreement and to increase trade, so it's very difficult to say. At the moment, we already have major countries that have considerable trade with Canada. They are very well known: Germany, France, Italy, and some other ones, in specific fields.

Before I was the ambassador, I was an ambassador for the European Union in Mexico. What I've seen in particular is that there are the countries that joined the European Union 10 years ago already this year, but I would say that particularly the newest EU member states will profit from this opening.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

So there's been no analysis you're aware of that singles out particular European countries that are expected to benefit?

11:15 a.m.

Ambassador, Delegation of the European Union to Canada

H.E. Marie-Anne Coninsx

No, because the approach is not to single out the countries. We want to see that it is the businesses that will make use of it; it would be more the sectors that will profit from it per country.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

Turning to process, Ambassador, when do you expect the final text of CETA to be ready and available for European parliamentarians to actually read?

11:15 a.m.

Ambassador, Delegation of the European Union to Canada

H.E. Marie-Anne Coninsx

Thank you for asking this question.

On the final text, for the moment what is happening is that we have the finalizing of technical negotiations going on. I think it's a question of weeks and we'll finish. Then we have the legal scrubbing of the text, putting everything into a text. There's that and then the agreement can be initialled. At that moment, there will be a text, which will be published, but this is not a legally binding text. This will be a text that is extremely important for industry, because our experience with NAFTA, for example, or with other agreements, is that the moment industry or business sees a text, at that moment they can already prepare it.

We think that we might have a text in about six months. It will not be the final text. I think that for the final text we'll have to wait two years. It will be 2015. One of the reasons is that within the European Union it will have to be translated into 23 languages, which takes some time. Our European Parliament will also have to give its say on it, as will the council of ministers. The whole process, I would think, will take two years.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Fair enough.

I want to turn an issue of the investor-state provision. On January 21, EU trade commissioner Karel De Gucht announced his decision to consult the public on the investment provisions of a future EU-U.S. trade deal. I'm reading from the press release from the European Commission, which says:

It...reflects the Commissioner's determination to secure the right balance between protecting European investment interests and upholding governments' right to regulate in the public interest.... In early March, he will publish a proposed EU text for the investment part of the talks which will include sections on investment protection....

Quoting Mr. De Gucht, it said:

Governments must always be free to regulate so they can protect people and the environment...they must also find the right balance and treat investors fairly.... But some existing arrangements have caused problems in practice, allowing companies to exploit loopholes where the legal text has been vague. I know some people in Europe have genuine concerns about this part of the EU-US deal.... I have been tasked by the EU Member States to fix the problems that exist in current investment arrangements and I'm determined to make the investment protection system more transparent and impartial, and to close these...loopholes once and for all. TTIP will firmly uphold EU member states' right to regulate in the public interest.

I have two questions.

First, is it your understanding that the investor-state provision in CETA conforms to those concerns?

11:20 a.m.

Ambassador, Delegation of the European Union to Canada

H.E. Marie-Anne Coninsx

I think the provisions we have offer a very high investment protection. That I can confirm. The balance is absolutely yes.... The answer is yes. I cannot comment on the TTIP. That's not my experience.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

You have 10 seconds.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Just quickly, it says that he wants to add “new and improved rules, including a code of conduct, to ensure arbitrators are chosen fairly and act impartially—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Very quickly.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

—and to open up their proceedings to the public”.

Are those provisions—to choose arbitrators impartially, etc.—contained in CETA, to your knowledge?

11:20 a.m.

Ambassador, Delegation of the European Union to Canada

H.E. Marie-Anne Coninsx

I'll give the floor to my colleague.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Yes, for a very quick answer, as time has gone.

11:20 a.m.

Karsten Mecklenburg Head, Economic, Commercial and Trade Section, Delegation of the European Union to Canada

Yes. I'm sorry.

I'll just say that I think CETA has included provisions that make sure we have the right balance in making sure the public authorities maintain the right of regulating in the sectors you referred to from the press release, while as well protecting the legitimate interests of the investors to introduce mechanisms for being able to launch investor-to-state dispute settlement. Because that is our conviction, more straightforwardly: it's to protect investors' interests as to state-to-state dispute settlement, which is usually included in such an agreement. But the concerns are covered in CETA, and I'm sure the text, once it is published, will demonstrate that.

As for TTIP, the intention is to make sure that the public is rightly informed and all the stakeholders can express themselves, because there, obviously, the scale is broader. The concerns that have been expressed in Canada at a certain point as regards the investor-to-state dispute settlement in CETA are now being expressed on the European side as regards the U.S. agreement. So you see that it's the same topics that come up, and the same interests, and we feel comfortable that the agreements, both CETA and TTIP, are—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Okay. Very good. Thank you very much.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Mr. O'Toole, you have seven minutes.