Yes.
Evidence of meeting #15 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ceta.
Evidence of meeting #15 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ceta.
2:55 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Coast Forest Products Association
Yes.
2:55 p.m.
A voice
[Inaudible--Editor]
2:55 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Coast Forest Products Association
Yes, that's right.
Oh-oh, I'm in trouble now.
2:55 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
2:55 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
Ms. Alto, we've seen over the years the costs being downloaded, whether it's housing, whether it's education, or whether it's medical costs that are being downloaded to the provinces and ultimately to municipalities. Do you see any downloading of costs to municipalities in regard to this particular agreement?
2:55 p.m.
Councillor, City of Victoria
I'd be able to answer that question if I had a better look at it, but from what we think we understand, we're concerned about some of the risks associated with what we think are potential possibilities for legal costs associated with the response to challenges from local decisions that we might make in preferring one company over another. We think there will be more administrative costs in trying to sort out the higher degree of expectation and the perhaps more rigorous rules and regulations around procurement strategy.
We're concerned at some level around how we will begin to integrate this type of detail in rules and regulations with what I think is probably a greater degree of detail and expectation of record-keeping, of definitions, of defensive decision-making—the type of paperwork that I guess we don't currently need to do because we have more local autonomy.
All of this comes back to really a lack of clarity on what those expectations will be. What are the thresholds—not around the financial thresholds, but around the thresholds for the type of management costs, and legal costs, and responsive costs that we might be facing?
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to thank our guests for being here today. It's important what you have offered.
Ms. Alto, I also looked at your background, and I want to offer my very sincere compliments on your commitment to community and your great background of community service. My Cape Breton mother used to say that community service is the price you pay to live in a place. I think you get it, so I honour you for that commitment.
As I heard you speak, you said you weren't against trade, and I salute that. I think that's progressive. But you wish you had more information, is what you said.
Can I infer from this that you aren't against CETA but you just wish you had more information to make a more declarative position on it? Is that correct?
2:55 p.m.
Councillor, City of Victoria
Yes. That's absolutely true.
It's really important for me to say that we have a very eclectic council that is not particularly swayed in one direction or the other. If we were able to say that all of the concerns we have raised have been absolutely refuted, and be able to look at the language that said that, then I wouldn't be here—or I might be here saying something similar to what my colleague here said.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
You might then well be the proactive public relations person for Mr. Jeffery and for Ms. Gagnon's group.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
But you're here on behalf of your community, and you know, it's interesting; we just had the Mayor of Abbotsford speak, and the three words he expressed when considering the agreement were, “Bring it on”; very proactive, very aggressive words. It's my hope that Victoria will feel the same way, not being just the most romantic city in Canada but beyond that being equally the most progressive.
I hope you were satisfied with the response we gave you with respect to water rights. I think that is important.
I had another question, though. It's not a picky question, but I'm trying to get a sense from you, a belly button sense, of something. You heard through earlier comments that in terms of local construction for local procurement, the limit's at $7.8 million. I guess there are two parts to this that I want to ask you about.
Number one, what this does is it allows Canada the ability, with its services...especially since we heard in earlier testimony from people about the services in British Columbia, that at that very technical and high level they compete with anyone in the world. I wouldn't doubt that people from Victoria feel the same way about their capabilities. So here we have a monstrously huge procurement opportunity the other way for citizens of British Columbia and, if I might say, Victoria.
The other question I have, though, is that if $7.8 million isn't the right number, what is?
3 p.m.
Councillor, City of Victoria
I think it would have to be a lot lower. I think we would have to have a negotiated conversation about what that would be.
Victoria at the moment, like many municipalities, is facing a really significant crisis in infrastructure development and repair. We're really behind the eight ball with a number of different very, very large projects that will be coming up in the next decade. When we're looking at those types of numbers, they are all in the multi-millions of dollars.
3 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
Sure. And to be fair, I think you meant “higher”, not “lower”.
3 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
It's not that I want to correct your record, but I think that's what you meant.
3 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
Now, where does it draw the line in terms of the opportunities? As political persons, we always try to balance care and cost. When we think about the responsibility for the taxpayers, we think about where we draw the line in terms of that best value for taxpayers relative to focusing specifically on local interests.
I think it's fair to say that we've tried to find that balance, so that it would allow you as a politician to be able to say in good faith to the good people of Victoria, look, here's what we've done: we've set a balance where there will be a lot of individual procurement that we can control at the local level; we think our folks can compete with the best and the brightest in the world; but when it gets to a certain stage, to offer best value for you as taxpayers, we're not uncomfortable with that limit of $7.8 million.
How do you feel about that?
3 p.m.
Councillor, City of Victoria
I think the majority of our council would probably agree if that number was higher.
Certainly, there are elements within our council who would be opposed to CETA in principle, but there's the majority and that's why I think our resolution ultimately, when it was crafted in the way in which it was, was able to be unanimously supported, because without the detail that you're referring to, we would rather be outside the tent than be in a tent that we don't know anything about.
Yes, we could negotiate. I would love to be in a position where we could have a conversation like this, where we actually sat down and said that from Victoria's perspective, given ultimately what we're facing, the threshold that makes sense for us is this, and then be able to have an informed conversation with you about the pros and cons about that for the country.
3 p.m.
Councillor, City of Victoria
No, and I don't know the answer to that question because we haven't been able to have the conversation. That's the point.
3 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield
That's fine. We could go on, but I think you made the point very well that when you're uncertain of actual facts, you become nervous. I think you presented that well and that's fair.
I appreciate your testimony. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. We certainly thank the committee for their questions as well.
With that we will suspend as we set up our next group of panellists.