International Trade Committee on April 10th, 2014

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Do you think that the size of the Canadian economy as compared to that of Honduras could allow us to influence the government of that country in a significant way, or is this really a lost cause, and would it be preferable to wait?

[Pablo Heidrich]

Well, in principle, yes, the Canadian economy and the Canadian government have resources that are enormously bigger than those of the Honduran economy and government and yes, I made the argument that Canada could have a tremendous influence, but that requires a level of determination and also expenditure. In aid, for example, the $40 million, or a little bit less, that Canada spends in terms of aid in Honduras does not buy you very much leverage. If you want to do it, you need to do it big, and besides there are other players like the EU and the U.S.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Do you not think that in order to use a treaty like that one for leverage, one must at the outset have a specific intention?

[Pablo Heidrich]

No. In general the international practice or international experience of using FTAs as leverage is not very successful, not even for countries that have a much bigger domestic market to offer access to, such as the U.S. or again the EU, or Japan, for example.

I don't think Canada can leverage with an FTA, but it can leverage with aid because the Honduran government is a government that is very much stripped of resources. I think what the Honduran government needs is not only resources, but it needs technical assistance, and it also needs a certain level of pressure so that the government becomes more responsive to wider social demands and it stops being sort of a committee that administers the gains of a very limited group of people.

That is demonstrated once again in the FTA. Those exceptions that I mentioned before in the FTA are very telling, that those are the interests of the most powerful families who control politics in Honduras. That is unprecedented that a country would say, I'm going to give you access to all this, but not to all these other sectors, when those sectors, everybody knows in Honduras they are controlled by the families mostly related to the party in government. Can you imagine the same in Canada?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. O'Toole.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you both for appearing.

I have a few questions for both of you. I'll begin with Ms. Moore.

Can you just describe the mission of MiningWatch?

[Jennifer Moore]

MiningWatch is an advocacy, investigation, and technical support organization based here in Ottawa. We provide support to mining-affected communities here in Canada and internationally.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Is the Canadian branch part of an international network? Is MiningWatch international, or is it Canadian headquartered?

[Jennifer Moore]

No, we're a group of five people who live and work here in Ottawa.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Now you're reporting on mining-affected regions or communities, as you describe it. How is that conducted? I see you're the Latin America chair. Do you regularly visit there, or do you have paid reporters or investigators? How do you distill your information on a specific area?

[Jennifer Moore]

Yes, we've carried out visits to Honduras. We have regular contact with partners in Honduras including human rights accompaniment organizations, local people who are working in Tegucigalpa-based organizations, and community leaders themselves.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Before committee today, you discussed a scenario where somebody on the ground—I can't remember whether it was in El Salvador or Honduras—had been followed by cars with no licence plates. That was sort of your description. Where does that story come from? Is that something you have seen, or are these reports from the person, or is it anecdotal? How do you substantiate any...?

[Jennifer Moore]

Those were reports from the person that were reported on by Honduran journalists who are highly regarded and who worked for COFADEH, the organization that Bertha Oliva testified for here on Tuesday. She also reiterated on Tuesday night when she presented at the University of Ottawa that his life is in dire danger.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

I think you appeared on the CBC program The 180 just before I did when I was talking about Canada's CSR program and our CSR counsellor. My concern is that often—and you did it here today—you'll mention a person like that gentleman and a report and you'll connect it to the operation in that country of X Canadian company, but I never see a direct relationship to that company actually being involved in any way with some of the activities you suggest. To me it seems anecdotal.

[Jennifer Moore]

No, my point in mentioning Carlos Amador and in also mentioning the threats that are being faced in the community of Nueva Esperanza and in other communities around Honduras right now is that right now the current operating and mining sector in Honduras is a situation in which campesinos, indigenous people, journalists, and other community leaders are being targeted on a regular basis, are being threatened on a regular basis when they speak out in their efforts to try to better protect water and lands, which are not things that are being protected under the current legal regimen in Honduras. They are not protected by the new mining law that Canada helped finance. They are not protected by it or it cannot be properly enforced through the justice system or the administrative system in Honduras. That would not be helped by the free trade agreement that you are currently deliberating here today.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

But we've heard from several other witnesses that probably the biggest challenge facing Honduras is institutional problems on a police level, an investigative level, and on a criminal justice level. Whether it's narco-trafficking or just general crime and violence, are there not endemic challenges, particularly in more regionalized parts of these countries, that would exist even if there was not a Canadian company operating in the area?

[Jennifer Moore]

I'd like to hear what you have to say about the structural problem that Canada has helped to create and enforce in Honduras through sponsoring the current mining law, which is the legal regimen that Canadian companies or any other company is going to be operating under now in Honduras, and that would be reinforced by the free trade agreement that you're currently discussing.

So it's not about one or another company; it's about the legal environment, the structure in place that they rely on in order to protect and develop their operations, and that would be reinforced in that they could recur to international arbitration in order to ensure that it is indeed the framework under which Honduras is operating and not a stronger framework that would actually protect water supplies, land, and the lives of the people who are directly affected.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

But my question was more.... Say there was not a single Canadian company operating or with any interest in the country, would there not still be the serious criminal narco-trafficking problems and problems with the judicial system?

[Jennifer Moore]

There would still be a structural problem within the mining sector that Canada has helped to create through the passage of the new mining law and that any mining company would be operating under. It would be reinforced by the free trade agreement that any company with a subsidiary in Canada could use in order to sue Honduras should they try to do something to protect their citizens.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

What existed prior to the mining law in place now?

[Jennifer Moore]

A similarly weak mining law that communities, especially spurred on by the impacts of Goldcorp's operations in the Valle de Siria, have been fighting to change since 2002, and that's why there was a mining bill that was on the table prior to the military-backed ouster of Manuel Zelaya in 2009 that would have better incorporated their proposals, but it never got debated because of the military-backed coup that Canada never spoke out about.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

We had departmental officials here the last day who actually said we did cease relationship following the coup. But another major country involved in international resource development is China. Would you suggest it would be better that Chinese companies operate in parts of the world, including Latin America?

[Jennifer Moore]

I currently think there's an inadequate framework in Honduras to protect the lives and the communities that are being affected by mining companies wherever they come from.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Pacetti.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Ms. Moore, a quick question. MiningWatch, are they in favour of mining at all?