Evidence of meeting #109 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cptpp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Christine Lafrance
Bruce Christie  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Pierre Bouchard  Director, Bilateral and Regional Labour Affairs, Department of Employment and Social Development

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Good morning, everyone.

Thank you, folks, for coming.

As our witnesses know, our committee did quite a cross-country tour and study on the original TPP. It was very thorough. We had a lot of witnesses, and we had a lot of comments from stakeholders, the community, and Canadian citizens.

Of course, there's a new potential agreement. It's called the CPTPP. What our committee was requesting—and we're glad that you came in—was a snapshot of the differences from one to the other.

We don't have any set time.

Mr. Christie, you're the head person here. The floor is yours, in whatever way you want to deal with it. When you are finished, we'll open it up for a dialogue with the MPs, and feel free to jump in. We're not going to be too strict on time here today. We're mainly getting information back and forth.

Excuse me, does anybody see the Conservatives?

Mr. Christie, I'm going to have to wait a few minutes for them, because they would want to hear your presentation.

On another note, members know that we're not going to be having a meeting on Thursday.

Our Washington trip is coming together. We have quite a few people who are going to be seeing us. The ways and means committee has not totally confirmed yet, but we have a good slate.

Everyone has their plane tickets booked, I guess.

8:45 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Christine Lafrance

Almost.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

It's coming together.

I think we're going to have to suspend for two minutes.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

We're back in business here. The Conservatives have landed. That's good.

We've already had our introductions.

Mr. Christie, you have the floor. Go ahead.

8:50 a.m.

Bruce Christie Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do have a prepared statement to give to today to kick off our discussion.

I'd like to start by thanking you for inviting me and my colleagues to join you today to update this committee on the recently signed trade agreement, the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership, otherwise known as the CPTPP.

My role is the Associate Assistant Deputy Minister for Trade Policy and Negotiations at Global Affairs Canada. I also served as the chief negotiator for Canada through the CPTPP negotiations, but not in the original TPP negotiations. As you may recall, I met with you earlier this year when Minister Champagne appeared before this committee to discuss the agreement. I'm certainly pleased to be here again with you today.

Before I go any further, let me start by introducing my colleagues who are joining me today. My colleagues are negotiating leads in some the key areas of the CPTPP. Kendal Hembroff is Director of Trade Policy and Negotiations for Asia in Global Affairs Canada. Next is Pierre Bouchard, Director of Bilateral and Regional Labour Affairs at Employment and Social Development Canada. We also have Garth Ehrhardt, who is Deputy Director responsible for goods and market access negotiations at Global Affairs; Julie Boisvert, who is Deputy Director responsible for investment at Global Affairs Canada; and David Norris, who is one of our Senior Trade Policy Officers in the Intellectual Property Division at Global Affairs Canada.

By way of background, let me start by providing you with a brief overview of the CPTPP as well as the key differences between this agreement and the original TPP. The CPTPP is a new international treaty separate from the TPP. Discussions regarding the possibility of this new agreement began shortly after President Trump announced that the United States would not ratify the agreement. That announcement was made back in January 2017.

As a next step, Chile hosted a high-level meeting in March of that year to begin discussions on possible future plans for the TPP subsequent to the U.S. withdrawal. Then Canada hosted the first meeting of senior officials in May of that year in Toronto, where we brought together the senior officials from all countries to discuss whether it was possible to move forward.

Then later that month, in May, on the margins of an APEC trade ministerial meeting, ministers tasked us officials to explore options to move ahead with an agreement without the United States being part of it. Following a number of senior officials' negotiating sessions, including reaching agreement of the core elements of the CPTPP in November 2017, a new agreement was concluded on January 23 of this year in Tokyo.

The new agreement covers virtually all aspects of trade among the parties. It addresses a range of issues with the ultimate goal of facilitating trade in the region. This CPTPP comprises a market of 495 million people. It represents 13.5% of global GDP.

Since November 4, 2015, the Government of Canada has undertaken extensive consultations on the TPP.

And in the fall of last year, the government renewed these consultations by seeking the views of Canadians on a potential new agreement with the remaining TPP members.

Through these consultations, we have heard that the Canadian business community generally views the TPP, and now the CPTPP, as an important opportunity to diversify Canada's trade and expand access for Canadian exporters and investors in Asia-Pacific markets.

At the same time, some concerns were expressed by Canadians regarding certain provisions pertaining to intellectual property, investor-state dispute settlement, culture, the auto industry and supply management.

The feedback that the government received from our consultations formed the basis of Canada's approach in negotiating the CPTPP, where we achieved excellent results for Canadians in response to many of their concerns.

The CPTPP incorporates by reference the provisions of the TPP, except for a limited number of operational provisions. The CPTPP also suspends a total of 22 provisions contained in the TPP that CPTPP parties have agreed not to bring into force with this agreement. This means that the CPTPP, outside of the suspensions, contains the full market access commitments and rules from the original TPP.

As you will have seen from the list of the 22 provisions suspended, they are mostly focused on intellectual property and investor-state dispute settlement issues; these address many of the concerns of Canadians related to the TPP that we obtained through our consultative process. The 22 provisions will be suspended indefinitely and will only be brought into force by a consensus among the parties.

The CPTPP also includes a number of side instruments, some carried over from the original agreement and some new. For example, there are binding side letters on culture that Canada secured with each of the other CPTPP countries. The side letters preserve Canada's flexibility to adopt and maintain programs and policies that support the creation, distribution, and development of Canadian artistic expression or content, including in the digital environment. This addressed one of the main concerns addressed by Canadian stakeholders about the TPP.

Canada also secured binding side letters on autos with Australia and Malaysia, to ensure that Canada's vehicle producers can export under preferential tariffs of the CPTPP. As well, Canada secured a binding agreement with Japan that includes important commitments on automobile standards and regulations. This side arrangement with Japan will be enforceable through dispute settlement under international law.

Mr. Chair, given the absence of the United States from the CPTPP, a key difference between the two agreements has to do with the agreement's expected benefits. According to the economic modelling conducted by Global Affairs Canada's office of the chief economist, the CPTPP is projected to increase Canada's GDP by $4.2 billion by 2040. This amount is greater than the $3.4 billion in GDP gains that were projected under the original TPP agreement that included the United States, in part because of improved market access for Canadian businesses and producers to such key CPTPP countries as Japan in the absence of U.S. competition.

In terms of next steps, the CPTPP parties are now in the process of carrying out their domestic implementation and ratification procedures. The agreement will enter into force 60 days after six countries have notified the CPTPP depository, which is New Zealand, of the completion of the domestic ratification procedures. Canada is working expeditiously to complete its own domestic implementation and ratification procedures, including the drafting of the implementation legislation, which will be tabled once this bill is completed.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair and committee members, as Minister Champagne has often said, trade is done over decades, so it's important to get these deals right. The CPTPP is an important agreement for Canada that will bring significant benefits for Canada over the longer term.

Thank you very much. That concludes my opening statement.

My colleagues and I would be very pleased to take any of your questions and comments.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, sir, for your introduction to your colleagues, and also for a very good introduction or description—it's even good for someone like me—in layman's terms.

We're going to go right to dialogue with the MPs.

We have Mr. Hoback.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you all for what you've done here. I think this is really good. I have some questions and a few concerns, but overall I think we're generally fairly happy to see what you've negotiated.

There are a couple of things I'm going to ask you about concerning the differences. I don't want to go into what was originally negotiated, because we would be here for hours. We've already beaten that one to death, if you'`ll excuse my language.

You talked about changes in investor-state dispute settlement. Now, if I'm an investor in one of these countries and they nationalize my product, what's my recourse? How do I go about seeking recourse in that situation?

9 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

The obligations under the agreement on investor-state dispute settlement have not changed. Any citizen of a country can take a dispute through the investor-state dispute settlement process.

The only difference in the new agreement is that, as driven by the United States, the original TPP allowed for the investor-state dispute settlement mechanism, or the ISDS provisions, to extend beyond the trade agreement itself into other investment authorizations and investment agreements that were signed—investment contracts, authorizations, as well, that were subject to the Investment Canada Act. We suspended those provisions, so the ISDS will no longer extend to include those investment authorizations and investment agreements. They'll be purely limited to the actual trade agreement itself.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

You talked about the 22 provisions that are suspended, and you said you need consensus.

Is that the consensus of all countries, just the first six or first eight, or the number of countries that have ratified the agreement at that point in time?

9 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

It's a good question.

When we originally were discussing this provision and the proposed suspension, there were clearly a few members around the table whose primary interest was to see the United States return to the CPTPP, or to the TPP. They felt that we needed to set up an environment to facilitate the U.S. to come back. In terms of suspending those provisions, some wanted those provisions to return automatically if the U.S. were to decide that it was returning.

What we negotiated was an outcome that requires the consensus of all parties, to make sure that—

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

So all parties have to agree

9 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

All parties have to agree, not just parties that have ratified the agreement, but all parties to the agreement.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

You're saying that even parties that haven't ratified would have a say in this.

9 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

That's unclear.

If the United States were to come back, with seven countries having ratified the agreement, whether the non-ratifying countries would be a part of that discussion—

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I'm going to have to move on because I have lots of questions.

9 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

—to be honest with you, that's still an open question.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I do apologize. We get only five minutes and I have lots of questions.

In Japan, you had the deal done, and then our Prime Minister didn't show up. What was the issue that he was holding out on? Looking at it, the only thing I can see is culture. What was his reasoning for not being at that signing ceremony?

I don't want you to get into the politics of it; I just want to know the reason that he thought this wasn't good enough. What was the issue?

9 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

I was there on the ground in Da Nang, Vietnam, and I can tell you that the Prime Minister of Canada was not a no-show at that meeting. There was a misunderstanding. He had a bilateral meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister, during which he explained that Canada was not ready to announce a conclusion of negotiations. We felt that some countries were rushing to the finish line when there were a number of key issues outstanding, like culture, like our autos dispute settlement mechanism with Japan.

We had an autos agreement with Japan that had not been concluded at the time of Da Nang. In our view, we had made significant progress on the core elements of the agreement, but we had not concluded negotiations. Canada decided that this was not the time to announce a conclusion of negotiations, that more work had to be done.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

As we look at NAFTA being negotiated right now, if the U.S. does come into the TPP, it will supersede whatever is negotiated today in NAFTA.

Is that fair to say?

9:05 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

The CPTPP rules and provisions apply to the 11 parties. The United States is not a party to the agreement.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

But if they join, I am assuming.... Say they decide that they're going to join next year, and Trump has also hinted at that. We just negotiated NAFTA.

All of a sudden what we've done in NAFTA is no longer relevant, is it not?

9:05 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

No, that's not the case.

We often have overlapping trade agreements. Countries have an option to abide by the rules—by one or the other. In the case of NAFTA, for example, the rules of auto trade, the rules of origin on autos, would be governed by the NAFTA agreement, not by the TPP agreement.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you.

We're going to move over to the Liberals.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you have the floor for five minutes.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you to the presenters.

My questions go to you, Mr. Christie.

You were mentioning about the U.S. getting in at a later stage, and talking about the consensus. I would like to know more.

What incentives will the U.S. have, when we have unanimous say or consensus within all parties to have decisions made? The U.S. will not have any say, and Canada will have exactly what we want to do in there.

9:05 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations and Lead Negotiator of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

We will treat the United States, if it indicates a serious interest to accede to the CPTPP, as we would any other potentially acceding country. There's no special fast track for the United States' accession. We would meet as a group to explain to any potential acceding party that it has to meet all of the terms and conditions of the agreement in order to accede, without exception.

In the case of the United States, I would say that the majority of parties—perhaps not the majority, but a significant number of the parties that have ratified the agreement at that time—will have to make a decision as to whether the suspended provisions would be lifted in order for the United States to join the agreement. That decision would have to be made.

My assumption is that if the United States were to indicate to us that it wants to return to the agreement, not only would it want us to lift the 22 suspended provisions, but I'm sure that it would also ask for more concessions on the part of the 11 parties, so that would become a negotiating process with the 11, with the United States.