Evidence of meeting #15 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tpp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Balsillie  Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual
Michael Geist  Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law and Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Lawrence Herman  Counsel , Herman and Associates, As an Individual
Barry Sookman  Partner, McCarthy Tétrault, As an Individual

9:40 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

I know some of those who are very high profile in it.

What TPP does is enshrine the interests of pre-existing IP holders, and so it advantages those. The problem is that Canada really has none of those, and so Canada is a net loser. It creates inequity between states that have a lot IP, and states and countries that don't. It also creates inequities within countries. I know that the critics in the U.S. are mainly concerned about the inequity it creates within the U.S. I'm just looking at Canada's prosperity to say that I see the cheques rolling out of Canada. We're both concerned about inequity that it creates, but we come at it with the two different elements of inequity that we're looking at.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Mr. Geist, do you have an opinion on it?

9:40 a.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law and Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

I just want to add that, in the context of the United States, the notion that Canada should move expeditiously on the TPP without clarity on what's happening in the United States should clearly be a non-starter.

As I'm sure the committee knows, the TPP cannot take effect unless the U.S. decides to formally ratify it. The idea that we would undertake what are some clear losses, without any certainty the TPP will even come to fruition, makes no sense whatsoever.

Even beyond that, the fact we are seeing this kind of opposition in the United States does suggest that a reopening of the TPP, and renegotiation of some of those terms, may ultimately be a part of the U.S. strategy as well, given where we are seeing some of the presidential candidates speak. Ideally, Canada has to take this up or take it down. I suspect it simply won't be the case.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, sir.

We have room for one more questioner, and that's Mr. Van Kesteren, for five minutes.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Thank you, for coming.

There's far too little time. You've just opened up so many questions. There's some confusion though. I don't know how to frame this question, but I don't have much time. I'm going to try to frame it as quickly as possible.

There are going to be winners and losers. We're going to be positioned, in some areas of our economy where we're strong, to expand. You've said that, in essence. I know that the United States has recognized that for years too. You're absolutely right; they've focused on those high-tech areas.

In regards to the pharmaceuticals, doesn't 12 years being reduced to seven years stand your argument on its head, Michael, as far as the Americans? Doesn't that give them a disadvantage? Wouldn't they want to see a longer period of time?

9:40 a.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law and Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

The agreement doesn't do 12 or seven, it does eight, or five plus three.

The U.S., or at least the Obama administration, has recognized that it got it wrong, I would argue, given that it has tried to push forward with a reduction.

In fact, it's not so much that it's a disadvantage. There are studies in the United States coming from the U.S. government that argue that there is no need for additional protection for biologics, that the market already has enough incentives to create, and that it is so difficult to create the generic equivalent to biologics—referred to as biosimilars—that they already have that effective protection. So establishing additional terms of protection, whatever the length, may not even be necessary.

When you have cutting-edge innovation, the idea that you're going to essentially be driven by either lobby groups or unknown policies that haven't been developed yet, and lock yourself into those choices, is a mistake from my perspective. In fact, we see it playing out even within the United States. We also see it playing out in Australia. One of their most contentious issues is around this very question, because they can draw a direct correlation between the kind of term of protection that they offer and the cost of health care.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Mr. Balsillie, you did a marvellous job. Everybody is proud of BlackBerry.

I look at a country like Finland, and I think Nokia was their brand. Is it a matter of just not having the critical mass in the economy, all the people that you need? Obviously, you've proven that to be the case, but is it getting increasingly difficult to operate in that stage on the world scene, or are the Americans—and I'm hearing that from you—trying to bend the rules? I guess I'm asking, is it the chicken or is it the egg?

9:45 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

Everybody bends the rules in the innovation game. The innovation game is about rules to advance national prosperity. So everybody bends the rules dozens of times a day all over the place, all around the world. That's how the game is played.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Take Nokia. At that time they didn't have these rules globally.

9:45 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

Sure they did.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Is that why they faltered?

9:45 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

No. First of all, Nokia is a 100-plus-year-old company, and Nokia has all kinds of innovators in all kinds of places, as does Sweden. So the Scandinavians do very well. We could do very well to take a page out of their playbook. I'm not talking about one specific company; I'm talking about a national innovation strategy for outputs. Canada has zero growth in outputs over 30 years despite hundreds of billions of dollars of inputs. We're first world in inputs; we're third world in outputs. We're negotiating this agreement like a third world country, a developing country that wants investment, wants to get into it.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

I hear what you're saying. I look at, for instance, our farming industry. We see the innovation that's happening there. We see huge advancements in the oil industry, the extraction industry. We've seen companies in Calgary and Edmonton that have done some incredible things. Why can't that happen? I hear what you're saying about the rules. Is that the only reason? Is it the rules that restrict companies like yours from...?

9:45 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

I'm not saying me, I'm talking about the Canadian economy. I'd say my experience comes from this. In Canada we don't make many of these innovation outputs, that's why our performance is very low in those sectors like farming, oil, and so on. They are going to be increasingly more an innovation game. We had better make sure this isn't about technology products, that it's going to be about all of our sectors. When you talk about there are going to be winners and losers in the traditional game, the traditional sectors, Dan Ciuriak said it's kind of a wash, so it's actually a rounding error.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

I'm going to have to wrap up our very interesting first hour here this morning. I thank again the guests here for coming today with us. You'll see a report in the upcoming months. Thank you.

I'll just remind MPs, we're only going to break for a few minutes here, and we're going to go right back at it, so it's five minutes at the most.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Welcome, everybody, to our second hour this morning.

As everybody knows we're here to look at TPP and how it's going to involve Canadians. We've been travelling quite a bit across the country and we have many witnesses here in Ottawa.

For the second hour we have two witnesses: Lawrence Herman, from Herman and Associates, and Barry Sookman, partner with McCarthy Tétrault.

Welcome, folks, and you both have five minutes.

Mr. Herman, do you want to start?

9:45 a.m.

Lawrence Herman Counsel , Herman and Associates, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to address the committee today.

It's a pleasure to be here to provide my views on the TPP.

I'm a lawyer. I deal with international trade and policy. I was many years ago, in the 1970s, a Canadian diplomat. I represented Canada in many international organizations and international negotiations, including at the GATT, at the OECD at the UN Conference on the Law of the Sea, at the OECD at IMCO, and it goes on and on. I have for many years, after leaving the government, practised international trade and policy, and that's where my work has taken me.

Let me address some major points in my introductory comments, and then I'll be pleased to answer questions. I should say that the real expert here this morning, certainly on IP, is Barry Sookman, who's one of Canada's leading experts in this area.

The TPP is part of an evolution of international trade rules inspired by the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and furthered by the World Trade Organization. It's part of the progressive development of the rules of law that bind countries together. It evolves from the NAFTA and a range of other trade agreements, multilateral and otherwise, that Canada is a party to. When you look at the TPP, you have to see it in that context. The pillars in the TPP are derived from the multilateral system enshrined in the WTO agreement.

All of this is good. When I was in the government, we were striving to develop rules of international law so that Canada as a middle power would have the certainty of rules of the road—legal rules—and not be subject to power plays by larger nations. Rules are good. It's everything that Canada's foreign and trade policy is about: developing rules. Those have to be good rules, and they have to be rules that comport with Canadian interests, but the whole trend in international trade diplomacy is the quest for legally binding rules between states.

In the domestic context, there have been some negative comments about the TPP. We heard them earlier. I don't intend to join issue with some of those comments, but I would like to give you a more general and, I think, more balanced perspective.

The objective of this committee is to look at the TPP and reach an overall balanced conclusion. It has to be assessed in terms of the balance provided for in the agreement. The agreement is about much more than intellectual property. IP is part of it, an important part of it, but it's only a part of it. A lot of other things in the TPP have to be factored into any assessment.

I might say that in typical Canadian fashion, when we look at international trade agreements, I think we unfortunately tend to look at the defensive aspects, at what we have to give up or where we have to compromise in a negotiated outcome. What we don't do effectively enough is articulate our offensive interests, where we gain by having rules that benefit Canadian suppliers of goods, of services, and of capital in foreign markets. What the TPP does, in short, is provide the certainty for Canadian companies that want to export their intellectual property, their goods, their services, and their capital into foreign markets.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Do you want to just wrap up in a few seconds?

10 a.m.

Counsel , Herman and Associates, As an Individual

Lawrence Herman

I'm happy to leave it there. Those are my introductory comments. We can deal with issues like preferences, services, investor-state dispute settlement, and the important aspects of environment and labour in the question period.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Yes, you'll probably have time to bring them up throughout the rest of the morning.

We're going to go on to Mr. Sookman, for five minutes, sir.

10 a.m.

Barry Sookman Partner, McCarthy Tétrault, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am a senior partner with the law firm of McCarthy Tétrault, and the former chair of its intellectual property group. I'm an adjunct professor of intellectual property law at Osgoode Hall Law School, where I teach IP.

I'm here today in my personal capacity, not representing any clients.

The TPP has been heralded as a 21st century trade agreement. In my view, both the e-commerce and the IP chapters reflect that.

The e-commerce chapter is truly innovative in that it reduces non-tariff barriers to the use of the Internet and other networks to conduct trade. This gives Canadian businesses the opportunity to do business in the 11 other TPP countries from Canada, and to maintain jobs here in Canada.

Some of the highlights of the e-commerce chapter are as follows:

There are no customs duties on electronic transactions, although taxes can still be imposed.

There are provisions that remove the impediments to the recognition of electronic documents and signatures, something that Canada has already adopted. This is very important for Canadian businesses that want to transact electronically from Canada at a distance.

There are provisions that prevent blocking of market access with respect to trans-border data flows, which in my view again are very important.

These provisions, some of which are related to privacy, have been criticized. In my view, there is flexibility in the TPP to pursue legitimate public policy objectives. The exceptions that are permitted in GATT have been preserved in the TPP. The parties are required to have minimum standards for protection of personal information and anti-spam. Some have claimed that the treaty doesn't go far enough, but this is not a privacy treaty and not an anti-spam treaty, so where the parties landed is what you would expect in a treaty of this sort.

There are robust provisions that protect Canadian culture in the cultural exemption, contrary to what was suggested by Professor Geist.

The TPP prescribes minimum standards for intellectual property protection. Canada played an active role in those negotiations.

The IP chapter, as you heard today, has been subject to criticism. Those criticisms are that the TPP requires significant changes to Canadian law, and will lock Canada into an undesirable IP framework.

In assessing these claims, I submit that this committee should consider the following:

There really are minimal changes to the treaty that are required by Canadian law.

The impacts that had been publicly identified in the aggregate are not very significant, especially in relation to the overall context of the treaty and when you take into consideration the agreements we made in CETA.

Canada is already committed to many of the TPP's IP requirements, including through other international agreements. It seems unlikely that Canada would repudiate or unwind these obligations or need to materially change how they have been implemented here. It also seems unlikely that any particular change we might want to make would merit pulling Canada out of its existing treaty obligations or would merit Canada not joining the TPP.

Intellectual property laws promote innovation and commercialization of IP products. The 21st century, and the fourth industrial revolution, which we have to engage in, rely on intellectual property protection to raise capital, and to foster innovation and commercialization.

The Canadian market, by itself, is too small for Canadian businesses to succeed. Canadian businesses need to compete internationally, including with our largest trading partners, Japan and the United States. Accordingly, Canadian businesses will need to compete in foreign markets under those IP regimes in place in those foreign markets whether Canada joins the TPP or not, and whether a Canadian business moves to the United States or not; that's the regime under which they have to compete to be successful.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Perhaps you could just wrap it up.

10:05 a.m.

Partner, McCarthy Tétrault, As an Individual

Barry Sookman

I'll make two points in wrapping up.

First, it's hard to see how Canadian businesses would be disadvantaged by entering into a TPP.

Second, I'm not suggesting that the IP regimes in the other countries are perfect, but many of the flaws are not flaws that are embedded in the TPP, such as the U.S. court system that Mr. Balsillie referred to. Those are outside the TPP, not mandated by the TPP.

The last point, Mr. Chairman, is that I'm not by any means suggesting that the IP provisions in the TPP are the conditions that will enable Canada to succeed. I very much agree with Mr. Balsillie that we need an innovation strategy, a commercialization strategy, to succeed, but I think those policy issues are separate.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

I thank both of you for your presentations.

We're going to start off with the Conservatives.

Mr. Hoback, for five minutes.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Herman, we heard from Mr. Geist previously that we already have bilateral agreements with a lot of these countries and we don't need TPP. Can you explain to me what our preferential treatment in NAFTA is going to be if we don't sign on to TPP and they do?