All of them?
Evidence of meeting #22 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tpp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #22 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tpp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:20 a.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
Not all of them, but some of them.
It's good to see you here, Mr. Shipley.
I'll just remind MPs that because we have such a large panel here, try to keep your questions tight and short, because you might have different panellists wanting to answer your questions. There's a good chance we're going to have a second round for you anyway.
Without further ado, we'll get going.
The Conservatives are going to start us off for five minutes.
Mr. Ritz, you have the floor.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your presentations today.
I'm more confused than ever. I sit here listening to pharmaceutical companies saying they're not concerned about the TPP, and yet I hear from a lot of other people who say they should be. I guess one of you is being tricked.
I want to start with Mr. Labonté. If I remember correctly, in your opening remarks, you forecasted an increase of $2 billion to $3 billion in pharmaceutical costs by 2030. Did I get that right?
9:20 a.m.
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Globalization and Health Equity, University of Ottawa, Canada Research Chairs Program
You got that partly right. It was fully in force by 2023 under the CETA provisions. Those are not my figures. Those are the figures Dr. Joel Lexchin and his colleagues came up with when they did a cost estimating future under the provisions of the CETA.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
Sure. Seven or eight years out we're looking at an increase of $2 billion to $3 billion. What has the increase been for the last same amount of time? I think if you did that analysis you would also find that pharmaceuticals have gone up roughly $2 billion to $3 billion. There's a natural increase year over year. There's a little thing called inflation, and cost of production, and so on.
9:20 a.m.
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Globalization and Health Equity, University of Ottawa, Canada Research Chairs Program
There was one figure we had in one of our presentations, which I don't have in front of me, so I don't have the data before me. It showed that over a period of time the price per pharmaceuticals for the patented or brand-name pharmaceuticals has risen, while the price for generics has fallen. That's been a consistent pattern in Canada for the last number of years.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
You're saying that will drastically change once the TPP is implemented.
9:20 a.m.
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Globalization and Health Equity, University of Ottawa, Canada Research Chairs Program
It will change if CETA is ratified, and the TPP will lock in those provisions and probably add one or two additional ones, which may make it a bit more difficult.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
You're not in favour of either CETA or the TPP, simply from that standpoint.
9:20 a.m.
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Globalization and Health Equity, University of Ottawa, Canada Research Chairs Program
Yes. The comments that were made earlier that the TPP doesn't substantially change what Canada's commitments are is largely correct, because the TPP commitments around patents very much follow on from what Canada has already agreed to under CETA.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
Okay. Thank you.
The one thing I would pose to all of the witnesses is that the provinces are the administrators of health care. There are health care transfers from the federal government. They're the ones that administer it, and yet all of the provinces are in favour of CETA and the TPP, and they're looking at it in balance. What advice would you give to them moving forward with TPP?
Yes, Jim.
9:25 a.m.
President, Canadian Generic Pharmaceutical Association
Thank you. I have a couple of comments.
Actually, drug spending in Canada has not increased over the past number of years. That's primarily due to what was called the patent cliff. A number of large brand-name medicines lost patents a few years ago, and when the generics came on the market at 18% or 25%, that reduced costs.
The other thing about CETA is that I think the government actually acknowledged that there were going to be increased costs to the provinces and had agreed to fund those extra costs through extra transfer arrangements.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
President, Canadian Generic Pharmaceutical Association
Yes. I think it's important that.... Again, to come back to my comment about the implementation, these costs will appear only in the future if the agreement is implemented properly. That means patent extensions should not apply to drugs already on the market. They are only to apply to new drugs that come on the market after the agreement enters into force. I think that's critical.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
Yes, absolutely.
Also, to your colleague, Ms. Cox, Jim mentioned that you attended a lot of the negotiation panels and so on, yet they were all done in secret, so were you just stuck in a closet somewhere and not taking part?
9:25 a.m.
Jody Cox Vice President, Federal and International Affairs, Canadian Generic Pharmaceutical Association
No, I was certainly not sitting in a closet. During the negotiation rounds, we did seek meetings with various negotiators from various countries, and of course with the Canadian negotiators, including Minister Fast himself, during many negotiating rounds. There was that ability to meet with various countries and share perspectives in terms of the TPP, the potential text, and what good outcomes could be in terms of—
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
In fact, there were a number of people who took advantage of the non-disclosure clauses and were very active, just like you, in the negotiations and in being brought up to speed as to what was happening and giving advice.
9:25 a.m.
Vice President, Federal and International Affairs, Canadian Generic Pharmaceutical Association
Yes, certainly, seeking out those opportunities ourselves, absolutely....
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
Okay. I'll pass, then, and we'll move on to the next one.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
We're going to move to the Liberals for five minutes.
Go ahead, Mr. Dhaliwal.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First of all, I'd like to thank each and every one of you for bringing in very diverse views here.
Ms. Pullen, you noted that the ratification of the TPP would make it less feasible to implement a national drug program. Could you explain why?
9:25 a.m.
Director, Policy, Advocacy and Strategy, Canadian Nurses Association
As you have heard around these tables, the majority of Canadians are in favour of a national pharmacare or prescription medication program.
We have also been active in other committees that have been studying a national pharmacare program. In our observations and analysis of the TPP and in looking at the analyses of others, what we have been able to conclude is that the impact of the TPP on escalating drug prices, and also the regulatory chill that could be imposed by the TPP which might prevent negotiation within Canada of things such as a single national formulary for drugs, are factors that might prevent Canada's ability to proceed with a national pharmacare program.