International Trade Committee on June 14th, 2016

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Your concept, and I like it, of a first nations trade commission would be the venue, would that be the avenue?

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

That's part of it, Gerry.

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, gentlemen.

We'll now to the Liberals and Mr. Dhaliwal, for five minutes.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the presenters. Some of you have already touched on how you feel about the TPP. I would like to ask you if you want to add something. What are your feelings on consulting you in a meaningful and effective way, so that indigenous peoples' rights are protected in the TPP?

[Dr. Pamela Palmater]

Thanks for the question.

It's really several issues. One, it's a matter of joint jurisdiction, legal jurisdiction. First nations have not been involved in any of the process and they should have been involved because it involves our lands, resources, people's intellectual property, and the environment, all things that protect indigenous peoples.

The other major concern with the TPP and the problems with legal interpretation in litigation at international tribunals is that you have a country like New Zealand, which is very similar to Canada, which made a specific protection for the Treaty of Waitangi. Canada chose not to. When you're talking about arguments that are going to be made at international forums, if Canada intended for it to be protected, it would have and it did not.

The other problem with state positions is that we've just left a decade in which Canada denied it had human rights obligations and indigenous rights obligations in the international community. That was for at least a decade. Thankfully, Canada is changing its position, but those former positions can and will be used in TPP litigation when it comes to interpreting whether or not aboriginal treaty rights will be protected.

That's only on the positive protections. There's also a negative side. Even if Canada could argue that it's allowed to engage in favourable activities and decisions with regard to aboriginal people because of the Constitution, investors will argue that it doesn't have the negative right. If Canada decides there's going to be a moratorium on hydro fracking because of the damage to the environment, that's going to be a problem in litigation because they won't be able to hide under the clause of more favourable to aboriginal people, because it's a negative decision that's being made.

There are literally hundreds of problems like that with the wording in the TPP with regard to indigenous rights and human rights.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Again, slow the whole ratification of the TPP down to make sure there's full inclusion of indigenous peoples, because it's going to affect our rights, no question. If you want to create economic stability, not only nationally but internationally, the crown had better get us involved sooner rather than later, because there will be legal.... We have to protect our rights, whether it's done politically and/or legally. If you don't start slowing it down and involving indigenous peoples, because of the inherent right to self-determination, our own lands, our own laws, our own languages, our own people, identifiable forms of government, five things for the inherent right to self-determination to be recognized internationally...well, we have that.

When Canada as a nation-state goes out, our caution is to slow it down. You had better involve us, because we have not only section 35 now, but we're also utilizing the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and we're also going to be holding the Prime Minister and cabinet to account for their words publicly, about building a relationship based on rights, recognition, respect, and co-operation. Those are powerful words. To give them meaning, to give them effect, start including indigenous governments as you start going forward. It's a simple request.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

If those issues are taken care of, do you feel that the TPP will bring opportunities for creating wealth in the indigenous communities?

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

There's no question, no question. I use Chief Reg as an example, but there are many examples. We have 634 first nation communities. Some are involved with lumber, some with potash, and some with uranium, and eventually it's going to be water. It's all of these things.

Inclusion is about wealth creation and job creation, but we also have responsibilities as indigenous peoples to protect the land and water. We need long-term sustainable economic development strategies, our full involvement and full inclusion. Yes to creating wealth, yes to creating jobs, yes, but also make sure that the land and waters are protected not only for our children but for your children and grandchildren. We're all in this together, so it would make sense to work together collaboratively on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thanks, Mr. Dhaliwal. Your time is up, but you might be able to add in later with another one.

We're going to the NDP and Ms. Ramsey for five minutes.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

Thank you so much for being here today. I am truly saddened that it has taken this long to have first nations people at the table on this trade deal and other trade deals that we have entered into in the past 10 years.

I deeply respect your rights to self-governance and to your self-determination. I think it's clear that the TPP could threaten or limit our future options for building an honourable and respectful relationship with treaty partners. To me it looks like a direct challenge to reconciliation and to putting into effect the recommendations that came out of the TRC.

I wonder if you could speak to the ways that you see that the TPP could threaten that.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Go ahead, Pam. You have some points to make.

[Dr. Pamela Palmater]

I would just say that the TPP as it currently reads would not bring the kind of benefit, in my opinion, to first nations that's being talked about here. Canada's only specific mention is on the procurement policy, and that's where indigenous peoples tend to be relegated, jobs and training, beads and trinkets. We're talking about ownership of our own lands and resources, which are in the billions and trillions of dollars.

You give me my lands and resources, and I'll train and contract with my own people. That's part of the problem. We're not protecting the benefits, or the environment, or the devastating impacts that will happen with other people extracting from our industries. Part of the problem here is that this can be addressed. New Zealand did manage to get a substantive amendment, after the TPP had closed, on intellectual property rights for traditional Maori plants and medicines that were important to them. There's no reason that Canada can't argue for the same.

UNDRIP alone requires free, informed, and prior consent, and you don't have it. UNDRIP has already been violated, as have numerous other international instruments. Our own Constitution has been violated. We haven't even been informed or consulted yet. We haven't even had the basic minimum of the consultation process.

There are significant legal problems, very limited potential benefits, and a great potential for harm for indigenous peoples and Canadians alike.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

Yes, it's just simple to respect Canada's own Constitution and recent Supreme Court of Canada decisions, from the Delgamuukw case to the William case, especially since we hold up the William case. The Supreme Court of Canada says to recognize aboriginal rights and title. Again, from an indigenous person's perspective, we're sharing this beautiful country called Canada. We're sharing the resource wealth. We're not supposed to be poor in our own homeland, but that's what we see.

We need to be involved every step of the way, not only on domestic agreements when it comes to developing land and resources, but on international agreements. We have not been involved with NAFTA, and the United States is Canada's biggest international trading partner, but we're not involved as indigenous peoples and we want to create economic stability. Yes, from a first nations perspective, that's our way. It's balancing the environment and the economy always, so we have to be there.

With FIPA, we should be concerned greatly about FIPA and China and how they're going to be looking at coming into Canada. That's another agreement we weren't involved in, and this is all going to impact on rights and title.

Again, it comes back to creating economic certainty to make sure we're involved, to make sure that we balance the environment and the economy, but have our rights in section 35 of Canada's own Constitution respected.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

Have you been consulted since the election? Under the current Liberal government, have you been consulted on the TPP? Currently, we're in the position where it's yes or no; there is no renegotiation to be had, there is no going back to the table. If that's the case, what is your position on TPP?

[Dr. Pamela Palmater]

No, we haven't been consulted. Most of the first nations chiefs and organizations I contacted before being asked to come here a week ago were saying, “TPP? What are the first nations issues?”

There's no money, no resources, and no information. No one's reaching out. You cannot say that you have consulted or even informed people if they haven't even heard of this process. Most people didn't even know what was happening here today.

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

I'd echo that as well.

Again, slow things down and get us involved. Before you build anything as the federal government, provincial governments, or industry, you build a relationship with indigenous peoples. That's the only way you're going to create economic certainty and involvement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you.

We're going to the Liberals, and Madame Lapointe, for five minutes.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses very much for being here today. I appreciate your contribution to our work.

I would like to follow up on Ms. Ramsey's question.

Ms. Palmater, you said that since the elections ...

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Hold on.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I always waste time with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

That's all right. We'll hold your time until everybody is hooked up.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Palmater, you said that you have not been consulted since the elections and since we were elected.

For your part, Mr. Bellegarde, have you had a conversation with Minister Freeland?

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

We did have a telephone call.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.