International Trade Committee on Nov. 24th, 2016

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

—and yet allow the bigger guys who want it to have the access to their own cheese.

Do you think the whole quota system needs to be relooked at? I get lots of complaints about retailers saying that they were being forced to buy stuff they didn't want in order to get the stuff they wanted through the existing quota system. Do you think it's time, that if we're going to do this, let's redo the whole thing?

[Karl Littler]

I think it's always timely to review mechanisms for the distribution of goods, particularly if there are complaints.

I have to say that I would not purport to be an expert in this particular field. We do have a grocery division. Unfortunately, I'm representing both perspectives today. We would certainly be prepared to pick that up, with any member with interest, with more specialized folks.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Okay.

Mr. Sinclair, you said we needed more time and more study and more consultations. I go back to TPP, and you said the same thing, that we need more time, more study. This committee actually committed another full year to study and consultations. So now are you in favour of TPP?

[Scott Sinclair]

I'm going to address the CETA today.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I guess the question I asked you—

[Scott Sinclair]

You asked why—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

—is coming back to the CETA. And the reason I ask this is that it doesn't matter how much time and how much consultation we do, you would never be in favour of a trade agreement such as this anyway. So why—

[Scott Sinclair]

Mr. Hoback—

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Sorry, it's always difficult when we have video conferences. There's a time delay with the witnesses and of course MPs. Just give each other some space here to answer the question.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I hope he answers my question, though. I asked a very specific question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

I stopped the clock, it's all right. Just take it slow back and forth so a response can be made.

Mr. Sinclair, you have the floor. Go ahead.

[Scott Sinclair]

Thank you.

Well, Mr. Hoback, as you're aware, there were a number of, I would say, unanticipated obstacles in Europe to the signature of CETA, which were placated through the development of a joint interpretive instrument. I don't believe your committee has studied that instrument. There are other—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

We've had the negotiators themselves come in and say the trade deal that was designed two years ago basically is the same deal except for the changes in ISDS and financial instruments, which don't come into play until all of the countries in Europe actually approve it. So the provisional agreement that would come into play right away is that same agreement that we did over the last seven years.

I will remind you that every province, every association, every group that wanted to be part of the consultation process in CETA could have. Nobody was ever denied. Then how do you come back and say that after seven years of negotiation, we still need another seven years of study? It doesn't make sense to me. I think the reality is that it doesn't matter what you do: we'll never convince you that this is a good deal.

[Scott Sinclair]

I'm not convinced it's a good deal on the basis of my long study of the text, but not every Canadian has had that opportunity. Certainly only a very select number of stakeholders have been invited to participate in these particular hearings, which are quite important.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Which Canadians were denied access who wanted to participate? Tell me which group went to Global Affairs or trade and said, hey, I want to participate, and were told, no, they couldn't? Can you name one?

[Scott Sinclair]

I'm not aware of any witnesses speaking to the consumer and health implications of the patent changes. If you contrast the process to that for the trans-Pacific....

If you'd just give me an opportunity with a timeline to answer, I'll be brief.

If you contrast the CETA—

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

I'm sorry, Mr. Sinclair. You might have another time to respond to that, but Mr. Hoback's time is up. There's lots of time here yet this morning.

We're going to move over to Mr. Dhaliwal for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the panel members.

To Ms. Pohlmann, out of these 109,000 business members that you have, how many of them are small businesses?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

I would suggest that probably something like 98% are small businesses.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

I come from a constituency where the majority of businesses are small businesses, so I appreciate that. Would you agree with Mr. Fine that it will help these small businesses, and could you elaborate on how it would help small businesses in, for example, my riding of Surrey—Newton, or British Columbia?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

Absolutely. I would strongly agree with Mr. Fine's testimony. We hear exactly what he says many times over. E-commerce, for example, has been a boon for many smaller companies that have been able to access international markets in a much easier way than they could have 10 or 15 years ago. They are now serving customers around the world. Some of the biggest barriers they face are the cost, the duties, but also those non-tariff trade barriers, which is understanding what the rules are. It can be very complicated, and it can dissuade a lot of smaller companies from even bothering to grow that particular market once they start to dabble in it.

Finding ways to have an agreement that will lower those complexities, that will lower those costs, I think will encourage more firms to potentially dabble more and then potentially expand beyond dabbling and create new markets.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

You also mentioned that almost 18% of those small businesses are not educated about CETA or these trade agreements. What do you think the government and organizations like yours should be doing to bring that awareness so those small businesses are able to take full advantage of free trade like CETA?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

I think part of that is not understanding what the advantages are of going into new markets. So it's helping them understand why agreements like this can make it easier to do business in new markets, especially those beyond the United States, because that tends to be the focus first for a lot of smaller companies. I think it's about education, it's about groups like ours getting out there and helping them explain. It's about government also being able to explain a bit more easily what that means in practical terms. They are not going to go through a big multiple-page agreement: what does it mean on the practical level?

I think things like the trade commissioner service become very important, because they can provide some of that simplicity when they have those questions. Even promoting the trade commissioner service to a much greater degree might be helpful, because I think a lot of small firms don't even realize that's a valuable service they can use. Many of them feel they are too small to use it, that it's something for bigger companies.

So it's about taking away some of that thought that they're too small to be important and nobody really cares, and making them feel more like they are important, it's more important that they think about those other markets, and there are resources out there to help them.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Littler and Mr. Leduc, when I listen to both of you, it confuses me.

Mr. Littler, could you comment on Mr. Leduc saying it's going to negatively affect the dairy sector when you are coming across as if it's going to positively help the dairy sector? Do you agree with Mr. Leduc, or is there anything you see that you did not cover?

[Karl Littler]

I guess I would say that with the exception of industrial purchasers, when it comes to cheese, consumers buy their goods almost overwhelmingly from retailers. There is the farm gate and some producer outlets and so on, but ultimately it is a decision made by a consumer at a retail level. We think the minimum amount of price-taking and the minimum amount of distortion in between the manufacturer and the retailer is probably best price-wise.

We understand the concern of Canadian dairy farmers about the potential for substitution, which is why our proposal specifically said that allocation should look at the combined domestic and imported sales, which would motivate our members to then go out and press for increased domestic sales in order to grow their own share of the allocation. That would require periodic recalibration, but we think that's a reasonable way of addressing...or a motivation to continue to push domestic product rather than simply defaulting into import quota.