Evidence of meeting #6 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tpp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jerry Dias  National President, Unifor
Dianne Craig  President and Chief Executive Officer, Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited
Caroline Hughes  Vice-President, Government Relations, Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited
Angelo DiCaro  National Representative, Unifor
David Worts  Executive Director, Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association of Canada
Flavio Volpe  President, Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association
Stephen Beatty  Vice-President, Toyota Canada Inc., Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association of Canada

9:35 a.m.

National Representative, Unifor

Angelo DiCaro

The focus on this was mostly explaining the impacts on autos, and a lot of the questions we raised in the presentation were about uncertainties that we still are hearing as different analyses are being conducted on various chapters of the deal.

For instance, on the media chapter, one of the big questions that we've been raising in that industry was whether or not online streaming services will ever be regulated by the CRTC. Currently, they are exempted. There's a provision in this agreement that some analysts have pointed to that say we're actually going to forgo that right in the TPP under the cultural chapter. That is very concerning, because that will ultimately lead down the line to many jobs lost in the media.

What we're doing is raising additional questions, just pointing out that auto, obviously, is a big loser in this particular agreement, but there are others that we're trying to keep our finger on the pulse of.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Go ahead.

9:35 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

If you don't mind—I know we're out of time—I just want to leave everyone with a question.

What do we get out of this? Of all of our trade, 97% that is going to be covered by the TPP is already covered by other trade agreements.

Number one, what do we get? Did we get the Japanese to take the tariffs off Canadian imported vehicles? Of course not, because there is no tariff. So what did we get? Zero. They ended up getting their 6.1% taken off in five years where every other country did a better deal. Our thresholds dropped from 62.5% and 60% down to 45% and 35% and 40%. That's what they got. What did we get? Squat.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, Mr. Dias.

9:35 a.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

That's a question answered that I didn't get to ask.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

That ends our first half of this morning's meeting.

Thank you very much, Unifor. Thank you very much, Ford.

It was a very informative and lively discussion here this morning.

We're going to get everybody set up for the next group of witnesses.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

To those who have just entered the room, welcome.

We are on the second half of today's meeting on our TPP study. We've been doing different clusters in industry, and today we're doing auto.

For the second half we have with us Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association of Canada and the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association. We're going to continue down the list the way we've done in the questioning.

It's been brought to my attention that Ms. May has a question and she wants to have some time. I've just been notified by the Liberals that they're willing to give her a couple of minutes, half of their time on their first question.

Who wants to go first, the Japan Automobile Manufacturers or the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association?

9:40 a.m.

David Worts Executive Director, Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

My name is David Worts. I'm the executive director of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association of Canada. With me is Stephen Beatty, vice-president of Toyota Canada.

Thank you for the opportunity to address the committee as it begins its study of the TPP.

To begin, let me outline who we are and what our members are doing in Canada, as this forms the basis of why we support trade liberalization such as the TPP to balance other agreements like the Canada-Korea FTA and the CETA.

As a small market with a large export-focused manufacturing sector and a postwar history, the auto industry in Canada is rooted in trade liberalization. Over the past 50 years, we've become an integral part of that industry. Since 1965, when Japanese cars first entered the Canadian market, our members have sold 15.1 million units. Since 1986, when the first vehicle assembly plant opened in Canada, Japanese manufacturers have built over 16.4 million vehicles. We are not only building where we sell, we are building more than we sell in Canada.

Last year was the second consecutive year of record production, exports, and sales for our members. Canada has been a net exporter of Japanese-brand vehicles every year since 1993, a cumulative total of almost four million vehicles. In 2015 we exported over five times as many vehicles as we imported from Japan. Nearly eight of every ten vehicles we sell in Canada are currently built in North America. Moreover, models built in Canada are among the most popular with Canadian consumers. Building locally brings us closer to our consumers.

New investments in the past year, such as the global lead designation for the new Civic in Alliston and a new generation Lexus RX launching in Cambridge, combined with the announced future growth of RAV4 into the Cambridge plant, underscore our long-term commitment to Canada, which will benefit Canadian parts makers as well.

To date, Canadian automakers' cumulative investment in Canadian manufacturing facilities is in excess of $10 billion and has resulted in attracting to Canada over 50 operations related to auto parts. The growth of our part of the industry now accounts for 43% of total light vehicle production in Canada. Direct and indirect employment stands at over 72,000 across Canada, including about 30,000 in vehicle and Japanese-related auto parts plants in Ontario, Quebec, and B.C.

As we believe in free trade, we are supporting the TPP, but not just for the five-year phase-out and the forward-looking flexible rules of origin. For the highly trade-dependent auto industry, the TPP will restore a level playing field aligned with new trade agreements, such as the Canada-Korea FTA and the CETA.

In fact, we were disappointed that the TPP tariff phase-out period was not immediate on implementation, as this would have kept us competitive with vehicles imported from South Korea, which will be duty-free on January 1, 2017. On the other hand, the five-year phase-out gives Canada preferential access to the U.S. market for 20 years over Japan, which offers the opportunity to boost production and exports from Canadian plants.

While the 25-year and 30-year U.S. tariff phase-outs, which apply only to Japan, are unnecessarily protectionist, the impact is not particularly significant. The tariff rate on cars is a nuisance level of 2.5%, and the 25% tariff on commercial trucks is not really an issue, as Toyota, Nissan, and Honda all make pickups in the U.S. Canadian and U.S. auto tariffs are not aligned, as there is no common external tariff, so there's no reason for phase-outs to be aligned. Passenger vehicle tariffs, at 6.1%, are two and a half times higher in Canada than in the U.S.

If the same phase-outs had been applied in Canada, not only would Japanese imports be at a competitive disadvantage for 25 or 30 years, it would create a serious disincentive for further investment in Canada. As such, we support the early ratification of the TPP as a positive signal to automotive-related investors in Japan that Canada recognizes the significant and growing presence of Japanese automakers and parts makers and, above all, that we conduct business on a level playing field.

Expanding international relations through comprehensive trade agreements such as the TPP will increase business opportunities and send a strong message to Canadian consumers of more choice in their car-buying experience. From our perspective, the TPP represents a critical balance as Canada forges new agreements with Korea and Europe, with a long-term positive outlook that will benefit consumers as well as many sectors of the Canadian economy, including auto and auto parts manufacturing.

Finally, to echo what others have said, if the TPP goes ahead, it would be the height of economic folly for Canada not to be in the TPP. In the unlikely event that the TPP fails in the U.S., then Canada should immediately resume bilateral EPA negotiations with Japan.

Thank you very much.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you very much, Mr. Worts. You were right on time.

We'll move over to Mr. Volpe from the Automotive Parts Manufacturers’ Association.

9:45 a.m.

Flavio Volpe President, Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association

Good morning, Mr. Chair and honourable members. I'm pleased to join you today.

I would like to thank you for this opportunity to share with you our views and perspectives about the impact of the Trans-Pacific Partnership on Canadian automotive parts manufacturers and to discuss the best course of action for the Government of Canada in the final ratification phase of this process.

To start, let me introduce the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association. The APMA is Canada's national association representing OEM producers of parts, equipment, tools, supplies, and services for the worldwide automotive industry. The association was founded in 1952. Its members account for 90% of independent parts production in Canada. In 2015, automotive part shipments were over $25 billion, and the industry employment level was at over 81,000 people. Approximately half of those people are employed by small and medium-sized parts producers in Canada, and the other half by the larger firms. These firms can be characterized as Canadian-owned private and public, or foreign-owned private and public. It's a very good mix.

The TPP is an agreement that originated with four small countries looking to formalize trade relations in the South Pacific. It was subsequently overtaken by the U.S.A. and Japan looking to wrap a bilateral agreement in the flags of several other countries, and was finally populated by countries that asked—by some reports, begged—to be included so as not to have been left behind by the marriage of these two giants. Canada's membership card was punched in this last group. With a new, inauspicious entry into mature negotiations between two major players, focused on their geopolitical interests and their own relationships with a non-party, China, Canada did not participate in this negotiation with a strong hand.

Other witnesses called before this committee have described consultations with officials and ministers in the lead-up months and years to this year's agreement completion, but the automotive parts manufacturers were not among that group. Canada, and reportedly Mexico, handed over its negotiating obligations in automotive rules of origin, safeguard measures, and snap-backs to the U.S. in bilateral discussions with Japan.

According to Mexican sources, the U.S. and Japan concluded a bilateral agreement in April 2015 that included a reduction of automotive regional value content in auto parts to 30% and in finished vehicles to 45%, with flexibility provisions allowing for a further reduction of 10% in the vehicle content number. The NAFTA standard, upon which the most integrated and lucrative commercial supply chain in the world had been based, was 62.5% and 60% respectively, and the NAFTA partner negotiating position was 55%.

That the U.S. did not inform Canada and Mexico until the Maui round in late July 2015 of its agreement with Japan is a matter of public record. I will not add to it here.

In the interim, the APMA met with senior officials, the minister of international trade, and the prime minister in the period between the April U.S.-Japan agreement and the July negotiating round. None in that group either knew of the April agreement or, if they did, cared to consult with the industry to understand its impact. I believe firmly that it was the former and not the latter.

Therein lies the problem with the TPP for Canada's auto parts manufacturing sector. No one in a position of authority invested in industry consultation before being dealt a terrible hand by major trading partners that did not have Canadian interests at heart when they negotiated the terms in our absence.

The APMA was very firmly and publicly involved in the period between the July Maui meeting and the finalization of the agreement in October. We coordinated policy positions between our Mexican and U.S. counterparts, and wrote public letters warning of the adverse effects of the proposed terms to our respective chief negotiators. We organized wide and deep industry consultations, attended and hosted meetings and calls on specific terms' impacts, and played a strong role in trilateral and quadrilateral auto term negotiations with our NAFTA partners, and subsequently with Japan.

The final terms undermine the continental dynamics of the most integrated automotive supply network in the world. The rules by which Canadian, U.S., and Mexican firms have successfully operated for over 20 years have been severed. Not only do the new TPP rules-of-origin terms allow for parts and vehicles whose vast majority is sourced from non-TPP countries to be sold tariff-free in North America, but dispute resolution, tariff elimination, and safeguard measures are also subject to Japan-U.S., Canada-U.S., and Canada-Japan side agreements that are bilateral and different.

A U.S.-Japan trade dispute that triggers a safeguard measure, such as a snap-back, could have an adverse effect upon Canada's automotive industry, and we lack the provisions to deal with it or an understanding of the causal dynamics.

Furthermore, and very importantly, the U.S. administration is preparing a trade adjustment assistance bill to deal with the effects of the TPP on the U.S. industry. If history is any guide, it will contain worker training provisions, beneficial tax credits, and very likely direct assistance to U.S.-based automotive assembly. A Canadian auto parts industry that is dealing with regional value content provisions that in some cases are almost halved, and with the Japan-Canada tariff elimination schedule that is five years versus the Japan-U.S. schedule of 25 years, faces the real prospect of being doubly burdened by a U.S. industry that will receive federal adjustment assistance. This will further adversely affect our transition into a post-NAFTA world.

This government has inherited a TPP that failed the auto supply sector, specifically the prospects of its small and medium-sized members and the Canadian-based production growth capacity of its larger members. It must approach ratification with caution. The U.S. may not ratify, although that is unlikely. If it is to ratify, it will certainly do so with compensatory legislation wrapping the agreement for our counterpart companies based in that country.

Official negotiation has already failed this industry in this process. The ratification process must be carefully conducted to address shortcomings, foreseen or otherwise.

Thank you.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you very much, Mr. Volpe. That's a lot of information in a short time, and we appreciate it.

We're going to continue with our list, in the order in which we're supposed to ask questions.

The Conservatives are up first for six minutes.

Mr. Hoback.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for being here.

Mr. Chair, I wish there had been more time with the last group, so as to have a chance to speak too, but these are great witnesses to talk to also.

When I look at this deal, it has to be good for Canadian jobs and Canadian manufacturers. I get a little confused when I see Japanese auto manufacturers investing $10 billion in Canada and then I hear from Ford Motor Company that they're only going to invest $1 billion in Canada.

Can you explain to me why you look at Canada as a great place to invest, and why—I guess you can't speak on behalf of Ford—Ford is saying that they'd rather invest $10 billion in the U.S. and $7 billion in Mexico? What are the factors that go into play in deciding where you're going to locate a plant? Is it population? Is it market size? Is it tariffs? Is it market access to other regions of the world? What goes into your decision?

9:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association of Canada

David Worts

I'm not pretending to speak on behalf of those who actually invest, but I understand that for those investment decisions there's a matrix of issues around the environment in which they're investing. Obviously they're looking for a competitive and welcome environment in which to invest.

I think that like U.S. automakers, Japanese automakers in Canada are heavily integrated within the North American region because of the FTA and NAFTA. We were not allowed into the Auto Pact, but we managed to get a reasonable deal in the FTA and the NAFTA. That's been the source of our success, I think, because of the quality of the associates and team members who work in those operations, and also because they've attracted a lot of Japanese investment into Canada on the auto parts side.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Is it fair to say that Japanese investment is coming into Canada because of other opportunities that could be coming down the road? You touched on CETA's having, for example, a platform based in Canada whereby you can have market access not only back into Asia with TPP, but into Europe moving forward.

9:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association of Canada

David Worts

That's right. As you may recall, Honda announced, I think about a year ago, its plan to export CR-Vs to Europe when the CETA comes into effect. They see an opportunity in the same way that Ford saw their opportunity as well.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I've heard some issues about the tariff reduction, and you touched on it. When we look at the macro side, it doesn't sound that good, but when I start comparing vehicle lines and products, I'm curious about how many vehicle products made in Canada will actually overlap with the tariff reductions. What are we really putting at play here in Canada in having that fast tariff reduction? Are these vehicles actually made in Canada, or are they made in the U.S., Mexico, or other countries? Are we actually comparing apples to apples here?

9:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association of Canada

David Worts

As I mentioned, about eight of every ten vehicles we sell in Canada are currently built in North America. About 40% of those are actually built in Canada. Basically, two vehicles of every ten are still imported from Japan, because we only make a limited number of vehicles and models here in Canada to take advantage of scale and scope and of having access to the much larger U.S. market within NAFTA.

We need those imports to fill out the lines so as to address all of the transportation needs of Canadian consumers. Recognizing that we've been a net exporter since 1993, we're building more than we sell and are very positive about the Canadian operations here.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Volpe, you talked about the auto parts manufacturers here in Canada. One thing about having lower content rules is that they also apply outside of Canada. So shipping parts and exporting parts out of Canada as part of the these supply chains would be beneficial to Canadian manufacturers, would they not? In Japan they only need 50% content.

9:55 a.m.

President, Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association

Flavio Volpe

Auto manufacturing is a very localized endeavour. If you think about auto parts travelling to other markets, they go in volume and they go just in time. They don't cross the Pacific by themselves; they cross the Pacific in a car.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Could you get a scenario where Mexico and the U.S. sign on to the TPP, but Canada does not? Would that do serious damage to your industry with the fact that you would not be competing now on a level playing field with our North American—

9:55 a.m.

President, Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association

Flavio Volpe

That's an interesting premise that gets put out there by a lot of people who have appeared here before, saying the terms are weak, but everybody else signed on, so we should be on or else it's a problem.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I still ask you my question. If we are not there and they are, what is going to be the impact on the parts manufacturers in Canada if they're not part of those supply—

10 a.m.

President, Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association

Flavio Volpe

We've been very clear. We were very clear with the former government. We're very clear with the current government. If NAFTA partners are in, we need to be in the TPP. That doesn't mean we think the TPP terms are good; it just means that's the lesser of two evils.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

When we hear about the number of manufactured vehicles—eight out of ten Japanese vehicles are coming out of North America—how does currency manipulation come into that formula if 80% of them are actually manufactured here in North America?

10 a.m.

Stephen Beatty Vice-President, Toyota Canada Inc., Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association of Canada

Could I respond to that?

I think if you look back over the last number of years, the single biggest impact we've had in the Canadian auto industry was when the Canadian dollar peaked above the U.S. dollar, and that was at a time when the U.S. government was practising a number of economic tools designed to adjust the value of the U.S. dollar. So we're in a trading relationship. It's very deeply integrated, and small movements back and forth with our key trading partners have a significant impact on our ability to compete both in the domestic marketplace and for the export market that every manufacturer in Canada is responsible for.

I do think it's very important when you're busy looking at this issue, particularly in the context of trying to determine what the impact will be on the Canadian auto industry, to understand that there are really two parts of the Canadian auto industry from the manufacturing standpoint. There's an American-owned industry and there's a Japanese-owned industry. As of the end of last year, Toyota was the largest manufacturer of vehicles in Canada and Ford was the smallest. You heard from Ford earlier today about its manufacturing base and its reliance on exports, and I think that's a very good thing for it. But it points out the fact that the elimination of tariffs into the Canadian marketplace will have little or no impact on the manufacturing base here in Canada.

So I think it's important to level the debate and understand what it is we're talking about overall.