Evidence of meeting #75 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nafta.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Max Skudra  Director, Research and Government Relations, Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business
Wayne Garnons-Williams  Chair, International Inter-tribal Trade and Investment Organization
Dawn Madahbee Leach  Interim Chair, National Aboriginal Economic Development Board
Pierre Lampron  President, Dairy Farmers of Canada
Norm Beal  Chief Executive Officer, Food and Beverage Ontario
Michael Geist  Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Isabelle Bouchard  Director, Communications and Government Relations, Dairy Farmers of Canada

4:30 p.m.

Interim Chair, National Aboriginal Economic Development Board

Dawn Madahbee Leach

It was referenced that aboriginal financial institutions work with indigenous businesses. I can tell you that we have a higher rate than any other financial institution in Canada in supporting women's businesses and women entrepreneurs. I think that's something we need more of, the support of that aboriginal financial institution network, to support indigenous women and their businesses.

Just to add to the comments here, I also have to say that, when I first came here, I was thinking that I could promote that we work primarily in the resource development industries, but we don't. Every day I finance indigenous businesses and they are in every sector. Last Thursday, our board met, and we were financing a company operating in Canada and the U.S. that builds parking meters for commercial parking lots for hospitals, government buildings, and all, and their business has grown four times in one year. They are doing a lot of export. They are doing amazing work.

We have companies, of course, in every sector. Fisheries is really important to look at in Canada. That's one of the areas where we can provide food security around the world, and we have the resources to do so. Indigenous people are the first ones involved in that kind of industry. There are all kinds of sectors we can be involved in, and I think more of that should be supported.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Chair, International Inter-tribal Trade and Investment Organization

Wayne Garnons-Williams

We have to look back to look forward. We can't forget about the past. Some people say the past is in the past, but quite frankly, it's not. Look at the reserves. Those were created 100 years ago, and they are still here. The reserves were designed to economically and politically isolate indigenous peoples. We are still suffering because of that.

What I am suggesting is a bold move, to do what the United States has tried to do, which is to create tribal trade zones in those reserves, regardless of where they are isolated, so that there is an economic opportunity for inter-tribal trade.

The Indian trade and commercial act, which unfortunately never got passed, was one of those ideas that were spearheaded to give a recognition of the fact that we have these reserves and these people are isolated. How can we help them? We have to turn this problem into an opportunity, and the opportunity there is to create an economic zone that helps to make right wrong and give them the economic advantage they have been so desperately deprived of.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Director, Research and Government Relations, Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business

Max Skudra

Can I just make one more quick point on that?

Something we've been heartened with in the last few months that we've seen in the government is something that my boss would say, if he were here, “All roads can sometimes lead to INAC.” No matter what the issue is, we always end up back on INAC's desk. I've been really heartened to see that spread out a little bit. A number of different ministries—Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Global Affairs Canada, ISED—have started to take up work, which we think is a very positive step.

Lastly, I quoted those figures about aboriginal companies trading more than the Canadian average and innovating more than the Canadian average. Aboriginal women business leaders actually innovate and trade more than the aboriginal average or the Canadian average.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

That wraps up our time. We're running a little late, but we're sorry we started late. We had some comments on one of our colleagues in the House who passed away, so we were late.

We've had very good dialogue here this afternoon. If you have any more thoughts or information you want to add for our committee, we'd appreciate it.

As the chair, I'd appreciate it if, for your counterparts that you were talking about in the United States or Mexico, we could find out who they are. Maybe we can get some information. If there's going to be a good deal for North America, it's everybody working together. The more we know where everybody's at would be good. I'd appreciate our committee receiving that so we can ask questions to them when we're travelling abroad.

Thank you again for coming. This report should wind up around the end of November, and we should be done December 1 with the report. We'll get you copies to show you what's in it. Thank you again.

We're just going to stop for a minute here to change to our next panel. I don't want MPs taking off too far, as we're only stopping for a minute.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Let's get going, folks.

We're going to get started here, but before we get started, Mr. Allison has some comments.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West, ON

Yes. Thanks, Mr. Eyking.

I just want to state for the committee that I realize we're new here, and I also know that negotiations are ongoing right now. I would like a chance for the committee to talk about where we're at with the negotiations. We could possibly bring one of the ministers in—I know Ms. Freeland is busy, but even if it's Mr. Champagne—to give us an update, especially after the next round that's going to be here.

I want to have that discussion. Now is not the time because we have witnesses, but we need to find some time on the agenda over the next couple of weeks, and I realize you'll be travelling next week. We need to figure out if we can get some updates here, find out what's going on, whether we need to go in camera, or any of these other kinds of things to get a handle on what's going on with this negotiation.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

That's a good suggestion. On Wednesday, I'm going to leave 15 minutes or so at the end for new business. We can do that, and then maybe we'll make sure the parliamentary secretaries can give a report. It's a good idea. We'll do it Wednesday.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West, ON

Okay. Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Without further ado, we're going to continue on with our study. I welcome the guests here today. Our study, of course, as you know, is on the future trade agreements we're going to have in North America with our counterparts.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

Is it? Is that our study?

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Do you want me to be more specific?

It's a study of the “Priorities of Canadian Stakeholders Having an Interest in Bilateral and Trilateral Trade in North America, Between Canada, United States and Mexico”. Maybe we could shorten it up.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

Good idea.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Anyway, that's where we're at, folks.

Welcome, guests. Many of you have been here before, so it's good to see you again. You know how we operate. We try to keep the presentations under five minutes so we can have lots of dialogue with the MPs.

Without further ado, we're going to go with the Dairy Farmers of Canada.

Congratulations, sir, you're the new president. You represent a lot of cows. Go ahead.

4:45 p.m.

Pierre Lampron President, Dairy Farmers of Canada

Thank you. I'm doing my presentation in French.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

That's good.

4:45 p.m.

President, Dairy Farmers of Canada

Pierre Lampron

On behalf of Dairy Farmers of Canada, thank you for the invitation to appear before the Standing Committee on International Trade as part of its study on the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). I invite all members to read the brief we have submitted to the committee, since it contains a lot more information than my short presentation.

I would like to point out that Canada's dairy sector contributes significantly to Canada's economy. In fact, every year, our contribution is $19.9 billion to the GDP, and $3.8 billion in tax revenues. In addition, the dairy sector sustains 221,000 jobs.

It is important to remember that Canadian dairy farmers derive their returns from the market, without any direct government subsidies. The situation is completely different in the United States. Although we focus our efforts on serving the domestic market, international trade talks are very important for us when it comes to maintaining our supply management system. The system is described in our brief.

The Canadian dairy sector was excluded by the Canadian government from the original NAFTA. As such, Dairy Farmers of Canada urges the Canadian government to continue to exclude the Canadian dairy industry from NAFTA negotiations. Let me stress that Dairy Farmers of Canada is not opposed to Canada entering into trade negotiations with other countries, provided that there is no negative impact on the Canadian dairy industry.

Opening the Canadian dairy market to the U.S. would be costly for the Canadian economy in terms of GDP losses, reduced contribution to the GDP, job losses, especially in the regions, and lower returns to producers. In addition, it would bring no benefits to Canada.

As the current Government of Canada has pointed out on many occasions, in terms of dairy trade between Canada and the U.S., the U.S. enjoys quite a favourable dairy trade balance. In 2016, the trade surplus for the U.S. was more than $400 million Canadian. In addition, almost 10% of Canadian demand is met through imported dairy products, much of which is being dumped on the Canadian market from the U.S. In comparison, in the U.S., only 3% to 4% of domestic demand is filled by imports from all countries. It is therefore wrong to say that the Canadian market is closed.

Not only does Canada honour its international trade commitments, but it also allows heavily subsidized American products to enter the Canadian market and compete with our domestic production. The amount of support provided to U.S. agriculture through direct and indirect government subsidies clearly precludes a level playing field, and is not likely to change any time soon. It is therefore critical to address this question as part of the NAFTA renegotiations in order to ensure a level playing field between Canada and the U.S.

In addition, it is worth noting that the U.S. limits its imports of foreign dairy products through tariff rate quotas, making their dairy industry just as protective as Canada's industry, if not more so. For information purposes, the U.S. has a total of 24 tariff rate quotas for dairy, compared to 12 for Canada. Furthermore, it is important to remember that, in some cases, the U.S. has even more stringent protectionist policies than Canada; they are in place for so-called sensitive U.S. industries, including dairy and sugar.

The last point I want to discuss is compliance with the rules. Some have suggested that Canada has not played by the rules by adopting policies that allegedly impede trade. Dairy Farmers of Canada strives to ensure that the Canadian dairy industry is dynamic and responsive. The dairy industry continuously responds to changes to the domestic market environment. Any new policy is created in order to respond to those changes.

The agreement in principle between producers and processors for a national ingredient strategy, including the class 7, isn't any different.

The introduction of class 7 fosters innovation, which will result in the growth of the Canadian dairy industry.

The purpose of the strategy is to upgrade our capacity, provide an array of products for use in foods and non-food applications, simplify supply chain management, and increase flexibility in order to meet market demand in a more timely and efficient manner, all while adding value to domestically produced protein in the Canadian market.

Once again, the Canadian system is concerned about meeting the needs of the domestic market, and is not export-focused like the U.S. industry. It is important to remember that, on several occasions, the U.S. has circumvented trade regulations in its trade with Canada. For example, the U.S. developed a product rarely used domestically, diafiltered milk, specifically in an attempt to take advantage of loopholes in existing trade agreements and undercut the Canadian dairy market. Canadian dairy producers have lost approximately $230 million annually since 2015 as a result of the importation of diafiltered milk directly displacing Canadian domestic production.

Additional examples are provided in the document that we have submitted to the committee.

The Canadian dairy industry has respected and will continue to respect existing international trade agreements. The same cannot be said for the U.S. dairy industry.

Let me conclude by stressing that other representatives from Dairy Farmers of Canada and I are present at every round of negotiations. In our view, so far, the Government of Canada has been successful in handling the negotiations effectively and keeping stakeholders informed, but we will stay alert.

Thank you for your attention.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you. We're going to move on now to Food and Beverage Ontario with Norm Beal.

4:50 p.m.

Norm Beal Chief Executive Officer, Food and Beverage Ontario

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, committee members. Thank you for inviting us to speak to the NAFTA priorities of Food and Beverage Ontario.

Food and Beverage Ontario represents a critical sector in the national economy. The Ontario food and beverage processing sector is one of the largest in North America, representing more than 3,800 provincial food processing businesses, which generated $42 billion in revenue and exported $6.9 billion in food goods last year. I refer you to our written submission for more details on this sector and the magnitude of our economic impact.

Our members are concerned about these negotiations because there is so much at stake for them. Over three-quarters of Ontario's agri-food exports are sold to the United States. Much of the reason for this trade dependency is location. As part of the vital Great Lakes regional trading hub, our companies are within a one-day shipping radius of some 142 million consumers. That is a market pull that simply cannot be ignored.

Further, the interests of our members are somewhat unique. The products that food processors deal in tend to be seasonal, cyclical, or perishable, or all three. In this respect, food goods are distinct from widgets, and just-in-time delivery has greater import when considering food goods with a finite shelf life. It is not only contract fulfillment that is at stake if timely delivery is not accomplished, but often the very value of the shipment itself.

Supply chain integration has been one of the key and enduring successes of NAFTA. The high level of integrated business operations established under NAFTA underlines the strong competitive position of Ontario's food and beverage sector. The food distribution chains that stretch across the continent are the reason that industry can meet consumer demand for a consistent supply of fresh, healthy, affordable food goods.

Let me re-emphasize the point. These goods tend to be seasonal, cyclical, or perishable, or all three; thus trade—particularly the unfettered movement of goods, services, and people between Canada and the United States—is critical to the ongoing success and competitiveness of the sector. Such border infrastructure as the Ambassador, Blue Water, Peace, and Lewiston-Queenston Bridges are the sector's lifelines.

I'm pleased to tell you that FBO is not alone in viewing NAFTA as critical and that this view is not distinctly Canadian. I had the privilege to participate with Ontario agriculture minister Jeff Leal in an ambitious U.S. advocacy tour that took us to Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York state, Illinois, and Missouri earlier this spring. We met with U.S. state government and business representatives, and I was struck by the commonality and the interests we share when it comes to NAFTA renegotiation.

The common thread in our discussions was that reopening NAFTA should do no harm. The NAFTA has largely benefited the food and beverage processing sector on both sides of the border. Any new provisions in the NAFTA 2.0 that undermine the current level of market access and supply chain integration would be detrimental to our industry and ultimately to consumers across North America.

Sure, there's room and opportunity for improvement. In modernizing NAFTA, it is hoped that there will be further streamlining of border crossings and further reductions in administrative burdens to allow for timely, efficient border processes.

In other words, this is an opportunity to reduce the cost and the burdens of doing cross-border business, an opportunity to thin the border, if you will. NAFTA 2.0 should be about simplifying customs procedures by reducing document and certification requirements, expanding the use of electronic filing, ensuring timely border inspections and release of goods, and allowing for expedited customs treatment of low-risk shipments.

Regulatory disconnects still occur around food safety and non-food safety issues. These need to be minimized. To accomplish this work, the work of the U.S.-Canada regulatory co-operation council should be expanded and made permanent.

In addition, NAFTA modernization may be an occasion to take regulatory co-operation a step further and entertain the establishment of a joint Canada-U.S. authority to oversee food safety risk assessments, with a joint bilateral office that would ensure stronger linkages between existing Canadian and U.S. authorities to allow for regulatory alignment on the following: science-based food safety risk assessments, using common data for hazard identification and characterization, exposure assessment, and risk characterization; best practices in food safety risk management along the farm-to-fork continuum; and collecting, analyzing, and communicating food safety knowledge for the benefit of consumers, government agencies, food producers, exporters, and importers.

NAFTA 2.0 represents an opportunity to enhance public protections, cross-border business competitiveness, and efficiencies in regulatory program delivery. In addition to the above, it is important that these negotiations reach a timely conclusion and that governments offer sufficient transparency in the negotiating process to keep stakeholder groups well informed regarding the process. The uncertainty and unpredictability regarding the breadth and length of NAFTA negotiations has already cast a chill on future business investment.

Finally, once a revised version of NAFTA is reached, governments must ensure a seamless transition to any changes in the agreement. Businesses will require sufficient lead time to understand, adapt, and modify, as necessary, established processes in supply chain relationships to achieve and ensure compliance.

Thank you again for the opportunity to present to this committee, and I welcome any questions you may have.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, Mr. Beal.

You, of course, represent Ontario, but I think you have a national group, too, that speaks very similarly.

4:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Food and Beverage Ontario

Norm Beal

Absolutely. I'm the vice-chair of an organization called Food and Beverage Canada. We also have a memorandum of understanding with my Quebec counterpart, so I'm speaking for all of the—

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

That's why I thought I'd let the committee know that what you're saying is not just for Ontario; it's for the country, from your industry's perspective.

4:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Food and Beverage Ontario

Norm Beal

Absolutely.

Remember that Ontario and Quebec alone represent 65% of the food processing industry.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, sir.

We're going to move on to Mr. Geist. He's no stranger to our committee. It's good to see you back.

Go ahead, sir, you have the floor.