International Trade Committee on Oct. 30th, 2017

[Wojciech Sniegowski]

The last issue, as far as the CETA is concerned, we obviously think it's a great agreement. The problem is that, first, it's not quite ratified. It's already working, but there is a lack of information for Canadian businesses on how to use it, really. The regulations are hard to come by. We are attempting to go to every presentation possible on that, and we don't have clarity on that. Polish sites, for example, have much better instructions. As you know, it's a 400-page agreement, and not everybody can interpret that. You know as well that the whole problem is in regulations, not in an agreement.

That's what we're lacking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, sir.

We're going over to the Liberals, now. Mr. Fonseca, you have the floor.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the presenters.

As you all know, we have a very diverse multicultural country and all of us are immigrants, except for our indigenous peoples, so we have come from all over, no matter whether it was the British or the French who were our earliest settlers, or our newest settlers that we have coming in today. The international trade committee, when we signed CETA, was looking at opportunities to expand trade and to leverage that potential that we have with our multicultural communities, and the chambers of commerce that many of you are in front of. What we are trying to find is how to have the successes that we've heard from Andrew, who has had a great deal of success in terms of international trade, in terms of growing his business here, and what we can do from our side, through our Canadian export programs or the like. It could also be around immigration, in terms of bringing in that skilled labour, but from a government's perspective, how can we be of service to you to help expand those businesses?

It's one thing to sign a trade agreement, but it's another to see that come to life and to expand business. We've seen the success that Andrew has had with Cyclone, his manufacturing business, but we want to help others. You have forged the path.

We'll hear from the ladies first, because we just heard from the gentlemen, and then we'll move over to the Polish Chamber of Commerce.

Bernadette and Karima.

[Bernadette Terry]

Do you want to go first?

[Karima-Catherine Goundiam]

Sure.

I'd like to take it in a little bit of the opposite direction and talk about the service industry, which I represent, and what we call the gig economy. We don't have a shortage of labour. What we have is a shortage of opportunities to break into the markets that have been typically and systematically given to the large companies, like the Deloittes, and so on. There seems to be a gap in Canada with medium-sized companies. You have the big ones and then you have the freelancers, but there is no real small and medium ecosystem. You will have the ones that are product-oriented in the tech industry, but rarely in the true service industry, servicing the tech industry. This is, I think, where the opportunity lies for us.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Would this include international trade?

[Karima-Catherine Goundiam]

Absolutely.

If I may, what I'm looking for from the government is less red tape and more direct information as to what to do in matchmaking. Everything I've done from an international trade perspective I've found out on my own. I made the mistakes and I forged my own path, and that takes a hell of a lot of time and a lot of money.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Andrew, your perspective has been that you have benefited from many programs, be they at the provincial level or the federal level, to help you expand your businesses around the world.

[Andrew Sochaj]

Yes. In our case, we are opposite. We have plenty of opportunities, but have to really keep our balance sheet in balance. Our business is very capital intensive. I cannot expend too much. I have to keep my accounting, my bookkeeping, within certain bank requirements. These are our major problems. As I mentioned before, I appreciate that the Canadian government has helped us a lot in the past. That's how we managed to build the company to the size that it is.

As the Canadian government, I think what you can do is have Canadian diplomatic facilities all over the world be informed of new regulations. They would have something ready when we call. Then if we call Warsaw, or any other embassy, we could get up-to-date information. They are not always kept up to date. Sometimes when I call, they refer me to the government here in Ottawa, to call somebody here in Ottawa to get information.

I think that would help as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you. That pretty well wraps up your time.

We're going to the NDP now. Ms. Ramsey, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

Thank you so much.

We've heard a lot at the trade committee about the skilled labour shortages that exist in different sectors across the country, and we hear of a lot of newly immigrated Canadians. There's a skills mismatch. They have skills from their home country. They're coming here and they're doing very different work from what they are trained for because there isn't a way to connect their skills with the Canadian reality. I'm wondering if you have any recommendations on how we can improve that, and what role, if any, your organizations play for your members and for new Canadians coming to facilitate that skills connect.

[Wojciech Sniegowski]

We don't do much. Our organization does mostly networking and facilitating, so we don't have resources to provide special courses to train newcomers.

I can tell you from my experience that there are two issues. The first one is adapting to the new country. I came from Poland with a master's degree in business administration and law and administration, and for the first three years I was a cab driver. It's the cliché of immigration to Canada. I'm not begrudging that. I think that was just a part of what I had to do, because my English was very poor, to adapt to the new country, and now there's no problem with that.

But you're absolutely right. There is this lack of coordination between a mass immigration and their skills set to what's actually needed in Canada. That's why I'm proposing something to try to, at least...part of immigration, based on the needs of Canada. Organizations like ours could be helpful in evaluating those jobs.

The example I wanted to give you is very simple, the very low-tech job of butcher. This guy, who is one of our members, is producing Polish sausages and so on. He has three butchers who are 65 years old. They're still willing to work, but God knows how long they can work. He's willing to give somebody $15,000 just to find him a butcher. He's that desperate. There's a real shortage. I'm not sure if we can train people in a short period of time, especially for such a simple job, but which requires certain cultural knowledge of how we prepare certain things.

Our solution is simple: import people who can do that job. They are available. There are almost two million European immigrants in Great Britain, and their future is uncertain. They're open to being solicited to come here. I think that's one thing.

Obviously, the colleges have a role to play in training, but I think it would be wise for them to also contact chambers like ours to maybe gauge which skills are necessary.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

Yes, it would be great to see a partnership between the chambers that exist.

Do you want to touch base on that?

[Bernadette Terry]

Yes. Everybody has touched on points that I've experienced first-hand.

One of my previous roles with the U.K. government was in economic development and regeneration. We obviously did quite a lot of in-depth studies into this as well. One thing we focused on was training and education and upskilling, and programs there, and also helping companies with their export plans. We implemented programs to actually help companies with their business expansion and how to do international trade and put programs in place. We walked them through the whole process step by step. It's a case of knowledge sharing but also practical, hands-on support, and exactly as you pointed out, working in collaboration and partnership with colleges and other educational institutions to make sure you are actually putting the right people through.

At the other end of the spectrum, however, I actually experienced first-hand a company here in Canada that really wanted to hire a scientist from Poland and couldn't because of immigration issues, and that person was integral to their company. Sometimes you'll get somebody who's extremely well qualified and is probably the best person in the world to do that particular job, but because of the processes in place—as somebody alluded to, red tape—it actually blocks that company from being successful here in Canada, so much so that they might even consider moving offshore or setting up a branch office elsewhere.

Actually, I wasn't going to raise it, but Karima-Catherine made a really good point as well. So much focus in Canada seems to be put on the manufacturing industry, which is great because they do a wonderful job, and we need them and those are really good-quality jobs. However, some of the largest companies in Canada, such as CAE and CTI, are actually service-based providers. I don't know whether Karima-Catherine has had the same experience as I have, but as a service provider, if you contact a person in the federal government for support and help, they're really not as interested as they would be if you were a manufacturing company. However, you are still a business here. You're still paying taxes and you are still employing people, and there is capacity to grow.

[Karima-Catherine Goundiam]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you.

We have to move on. We are going over to the Liberals now.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you have the floor.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the presenters.

I came to Canada as an immigrant as well, speaking very little English. I learned English here. I went to the University of Calgary and did my engineering studies there, but—the other way around—my daughters were born here, and both went to Hungary to do their medicine studies. They are doing their residency in the U.S., but they are facing the same barriers now. In fact, born here, they still have to write the English test. I can see that not only the skilled labour, but even students who are born here and go to Europe to have higher education are facing the same challenges when they come back.

We've signed CETA. When we form these trade agreements, does this create barriers for ethnocultural communities, or does it help? How can we improve on that?

[Bernadette Terry]

I think CETA is a great idea. It's just ironic that with Brexit, now you'll have to negotiate a separate trade agreement with the U.K.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Bernadette Terry]

You'd better get started on that.

[Wojciech Sniegowski]

I agree. It's a great agreement, but as I said before, we are lacking information on how to practically use it. Large companies will manage. They will hire lawyers and will do it, but medium and small companies, which actually provide the most employment, are totally left in the dark. To be honest, I cannot explain it to them, because I don't understand how it really works.

I think some kind of workshop, not so much with politicians—with all due respect—but with practitioners in the government to explain how that actually works, would help us to provide this information to businesses. As I said, there are a lot of Polish-Canadian businesses. Their natural partner would be Poland, but I cannot answer their questions, because I don't know. Actually, the Polish side has a better handle on that, and they have prepared much more precise information on what's available and what's not.

I think this is something that could be done quickly and easily; there just has to be a will to meet and talk.

[Bernadette Terry]

We are actually planning an event around CETA to inform our members.

[Wojciech Sniegowski]

Those are happening, but, as I said, there is no set of regulations—or simple instructions, I would rather say, because we don't need to read thousands of pages of bureaucratic language; we would need a translator for that. I think that some simple instructions that we can get and disseminate to our members and the people in our community at large would go a long way toward fulfilling this agreement.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

I fully understand.

I have a question for the British Canadian Chamber of Trade and Commerce. You've been in business for many years. There are other communities, like the Sikh community, that have been here since 1888 and whatnot, but they only recently established the Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce and organizations like that.

Do you provide leadership to guide them in the right direction on how they can get involved so the ethnocultural communities that are in business can benefit from this free trade?

[Bernadette Terry]

Sorry, do you mean in Canada?