International Trade Committee on Feb. 1st, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Minister.

We will move on to Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning again, Madam Minister.

You tell us that you are working intensively with the European Union to make sure that we get the supply. However, we know that unforeseen circumstances can arise. For example, Pfizer, on three occasions, has reduced the number of planned doses, and Moderna was to deliver 230,400 doses this week and next week, but will only deliver 180,000 doses in the end.

Do you have a specific plan in case the European Union cannot provide the number of doses planned? What will Canada's response be?

We're listening.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you for that question.

The delay or slowdown at Pfizer is a temporary situation. I want to remind the member that Canada continues to be well positioned to receive vaccines from both Pfizer and Moderna, and that Canada continues to be on track to ensure that every Canadian who wishes to have a vaccine will have one for free by the end of September. We are absolutely steadfast in ensuring that the plan to vaccinate Canadians continues to be on track.

My colleagues and I, and the government, are absolutely seized with ensuring that this is done without delay.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you.

I will check this in more detail and with more accuracy. In case these doses don't arrive, what plan will be deployed? What is plan B? Assuming that the number of doses sent is decreasing or that there are none at a given time, what plan will be deployed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Be brief, please.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I'm going to attempt to answer a question that both my colleagues, the health minister and the procurement minister, work on. I am very focused on making sure that there is no delay through the mechanism. Suffice it to say that there is no priority more urgent than making sure that vaccines get into Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll go on to Mr. Blaikie for two and a half minutes, please.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Minister, I've heard two things that, taken together, I think are cause for concern. One is that Canada has paid a relatively high price for access to these vaccines. Of course, it's hard to verify because we don't have access to the purchase agreements. The other is that one of the motivating factors for the European Union's recent move is that drug companies are withholding vaccine shipments to countries that have paid lower prices in order to send them to jurisdictions that are paying higher prices. That would put Canada, if you take those two things together, on a potential watch list for places that are receiving vaccine doses, given what we're paying.

I'm wondering if you can provide a little bit of insight into what Canada is paying compared with other countries and some reflections on whether Canada's signing up early at a high price means that it's on a potential watch list of exports to watch underneath this new European accountability mechanism.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Let me start with Canada and the EU. We're countries that respect the rule of law and the multilateral trading system. Canada is very proud that, on the advice of its vaccine task force, it has procured a portfolio of vaccines that ensures that Canadians will have access to vaccines and that its vaccination plan for the end of September is on track. The European Union has also said that the advance purchase agreements that Canada has entered into will be respected.

The EU is a trading partner of Canada's, and we are very clear in our expectations. Through the assurances that I have received—and that my colleagues and the Prime Minister received—we expect that these shipments of vaccine orders that we have placed will come into the country so that Canadians get the vaccines that they need.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

As I hear your testimony, I can't help but think of all the Canadians right now who are struggling with letters from the CRA because they were told by the government, “If you apply in good faith for CERB, you're not going to be penalized later.” A bunch of them are finding out that those reassurances from the government didn't really mean that much in the end. There's confusion about net income and gross income, and all sorts of reasons why people did apply in good faith, but then the terms and conditions changed underneath them.

What I'm hearing from you is that Canada has some purchase agreements. Nobody really knows the details of them. It's an open question as to whether the European Union has access to those agreements. We're being told, “Just trust us and take our good word that the rug isn't going to be pulled out from beneath you later.” I'm wondering why Canadians who just lived through, and are living through right now, an experience of having a government say, “Just trust us,” and are facing financial ruin are going to be open—without some more evidence, like details of the purchase agreements—to believing your government when it comes to something as important as vaccine deliveries as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Blaikie.

Minister, I'll turn it over to you if you can give us a brief answer.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I think the nine million Canadians who helped to flatten the curve and were supported through CERB would say that it was a necessary support. I'm thrilled that we all agreed to make that available and to continue to provide the supports—small business supports, overhead support, rent support, wage support—to Canadians. I think that we have to continue to be as diligent as possible and work with enough urgency to help Canadians get through COVID-19 through the measures that have been introduced and also by ensuring that life-saving vaccines are given to Canadians. As I said earlier, we are on track to do that for all Canadians who wish it, for free, by September.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Minister.

For your information, the officials have finally been able to get connected, so they are online. However, the ambassador to the EU, unfortunately, was not able to connect. The officials are there if anyone has questions for them.

We'll go on to Mr. Hoback, please.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, it's good to see you. I wish you all success. I feel like we've been given a punch to the stomach here right now, so I'm really concerned about moving forward.

You've talked about how you have reached out to your colleagues in Europe—you, the Prime Minister and the health minister. What I'm trying to figure out is that trade is done through rules, not through diplomacy. Diplomacy is part of it, don't get me wrong, but rules are in place so that you can't have one country superceding another country. The rules are the rules.

Is it not fair to say, in this scenario...? Is it a diplomatic scenario where you can actually get an exemption, or is it something where you can't and now we're subject to the rules of the mechanism?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

It is good to see the honourable member, and I wish him a happy new year.

It's good that we all continue to work to make sure that our top priority is the well-being of Canadians and making sure that Canadians are supported through this. Certainly, making sure they get vaccines is absolutely critical.

The answer is that it is both. We must work with our allies in the European Union to make sure that the rules, which are the advance purchase agreement that Canada entered into, are respected, and that there is no delay in the receipt of vaccines. We must also make sure we are monitoring the mechanism to ensure the EU is respecting the trade obligations under WTO rules, and that the mechanism is applied on a non-discriminatory basis based on international rules. That is also what we are doing.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

It's fair to say then that the diplomacy part of it is trying to get us an exemption. If we don't get the exemption, we're subject to the mechanism.

What's not clear in the mechanism is the triggering point. I'll use an example. We're behind in schedules right now. If there is excess capacity in these facilities in Europe, can we get access to that excess capacity, or does Europe just look at our schedule and say, “No, that's all you're allocated for this week, month or quarter”?

How does that all work?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

The questions you're asking are exactly the details we are working very closely on with the European Union. You're familiar, as I am, with the terrific team we have on the ground that is working through this, making sure we have clarity of understanding. Monitoring how this mechanism will be implemented is exactly the work that is taking place right now.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Fair enough. The rules are still being determined.

You've received assurances that we'll be treated fairly, but it's fair to say you have no assurances other than that you'll be treated through the mechanism.

One concern I have is the domino effect of what the EU is doing here. You said that the U.S., Australia and some other countries were also in the same boat as us. What if they retaliate? What if they say, “You know what? We're not going to ship any vaccines to Canada either. We're going to keep what we have, because what we're expecting to get from some of these other countries isn't going to happen.”

What's happening with our other trading partners in this scenario? Are we going to see a situation where the U.S. says, “No, we're not going to ship anything to Canada. We're going to keep it all for the U.S.”? It's not necessarily targeted at us, but we get side-swiped because we don't have the capacity.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Throughout COVID-19, what has been absolutely important, and Canada has taken some leadership on this, is to ensure that protectionist measures are not used and that all of us fight against those protectionist measures.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

But we're seeing that happen right now. This is a protectionist measure. Let's call it what it is. It can be done on two levels. It can be done at the EU level, it could be done at the U.S. level or a combination of both. The EU is very good at blaming one or the other. EU blames the U.S.; the U.S. blames the EU. In the meantime, we still don't get our vaccines. It comes back to my concern. What do we have for a mechanism to put pressure on the EU, and what do other countries have for a mechanism to put pressure on the EU that may cause it to react accordingly?

We're very vulnerable here unless we have some clear strategic plan for how we're going to react. It can't be just saying we're going to talk to somebody. We actually have to show some force here, possibly. Does that mean we pull out of NATO? Does that mean we draw a line in the sand? This is a protectionist measure, and this is really very serious.

I get very concerned, because I see these trade rules already coming under a tremendous amount of pressure. Now you're trying to say that diplomacy might have some influence. However, we're seeing the list for exempted countries, and we're not on that list. You won't tell us why we're not on that list, and the EU won't tell us why. That, to me, is a problem. Why did the EU single us out?

You say, it's not just us; it's the U.S. and Australia and other countries. The U.S. has production capacity and Australia has production capacity, but we don't. It is a lot more serious for us than it is for those countries. How do we know where we sit going forward?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

That's very important, and where I agree with the member here is that we do treat this with absolute seriousness. This is a priority for the government, for me and for my colleagues. This is also a global problem that requires global solutions, so protectionist measures will not help. We need to work as a global community, together, to ensure that Canada gets our vaccines under the purchase agreements that we have entered into, but we must also work together to ensure that vaccines are indeed available to the world. One country is—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I'm sorry, Minister. I have one more question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, Mr. Hoback. You're already at your time, according to my clock.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You have a fast clock.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Do you have a very brief question, Mr. Hoback?