Evidence of meeting #24 for International Trade in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was countries.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chief Executive Officer, Providence Therapeutics
I'm not sure what goes into the negotiations as Canada is negotiating with these large pharmaceutical companies for additional supply, so I don't know if competition restrictions are involved in those negotiations or not. I would hope certainly not—
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
What I'm hearing from you at committee today is a pretty open approach in terms of transparency on your part and on your company's part. Do you think the larger companies are meeting that same standard, and do you think that if they aren't, they should be? What do you think that looks like in practical terms?
Chief Executive Officer, Providence Therapeutics
I have the advantage of being a private company that I have a lot of control over, so I don't need to go through a board of directors and shareholders and all the requirements associated with a publicly traded company to provide that type of clarity, and obviously there is differential pricing across different countries, so I have an advantage. I can be a lot more open and transparent, and I've given the commitment to Manitoba that they can disclose our purchase agreement once the definitive agreement is in place. I have no problem with that, but it's unfair to say I'm doing better than they are; I'm in a different circumstance.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Dr. Gagnon, could you speak quickly to the extent to which, over the medium term, in the next several years, we're going to continue to need vaccinations?
From a public policy point of view, is this something that really ought to become a cash cow for large pharmaceutical companies, or is this something that we're going to continue to have a public interest in? There's an economic cost of not having that ongoing vaccination effort, and this really isn't the kind of thing that should be for private profit. At the very least we should be able to monitor it to see if those profits are excessive.
Associate Professor, School of Public Policy and Administration, Carleton University, As an Individual
You are totally right, and let's keep in mind that many companies pledged that they would not make a profit during the pandemic. However, once the pandemic is declared over, the vaccinations will still have to continue for generations, basically, and then we do not have a clue how much these vaccines will cost.
Liberal
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, witnesses.
Mr. Agnew, the EU brought in this implementation list, the restriction list on the exportation of vaccinations. Canada didn't get an exemption. Does that not concern you?
Vice-President, Policy and International, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Yes, it does.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
A verbal agreement means nothing unless you're on the exemption list, I've heard it said.
Vice-President, Policy and International, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Yes, it is true that there's a lot of discretion, so a shipment could be blocked at any time.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Mr. Daley, you talked about creating supply chains and looking at our supply chains in a more holistic fashion with other like-minded countries. I'm hearing that quite often from other people around the world who are saying the exact same thing.
One thing I'm concerned about is that this government relied on China at the start to do its supplying, and we don't have an FTA with China. We have quite a few other issues with China that we don't agree on.
Is that a prudent approach, or are we better off working with the U.K. and maybe France, Australia, New Zealand, the U.S., together, and making sure we have the capacity to take care of all our needs within that bloc, for example?
Partner, Norton Rose Fulbright Canada, As an Individual
Well, that's largely what I've been suggesting—that we have a more regional, more limited concept of supply chains. As I said, it gives us the advantages of economies of scale, but it also reduces at least one level of risk from our supply chains.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Okay.
Mr. Sorenson, when you talked about your facility, you said that you've already signed an agreement. Is that facility not being used right now? If not, why isn't it doing vaccines for Pfizer or somebody else at this point in time, until it's ready to take on your product? Why is it sitting there vacant and not being utilized?
Chief Executive Officer, Providence Therapeutics
Randy, it's not so simple as to just say that we're going to make this, we're going to make that. As was mentioned by the witnesses, it's more than just a recipe. You have to do the tech transfer. You have to do an audit of the facility and all the quality control that's associated with all the release criteria. You see what's happening in the States, where 15 million doses of Johnson & Johnson were lost.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
That makes the argument, then, that to go and say “Here's the recipe” to other countries just doesn't work. You actually would be better off making sure you have a good strong system for producing them here in Canada, or in another like-minded country. You could say we have capacity to help you out, and we're going to help you out by donating or giving the intellectual property and sharing it, instead of having it stolen in a situation that may not be safe for the people who are getting that product at the end of the day. Is that fair to say?
Chief Executive Officer, Providence Therapeutics
Yes. Providence's approach on this is.... The countries that we're discussing were actually talking about jointly putting in a facility in that country and doing training and having control over the quality of that facility.
We're open to tech transfer. We're open to sharing the technology so that Australians will make vaccines for Australians, but there's a certain process and a standard that we expect as a company so that our vaccine isn't going to be produced inappropriately.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Mr. Sorenson, before the COVID crisis, VIDO here in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, was doing great research work in regard to different COVID variants, different strains. They applied two or maybe three years ago to set up a manufacturing facility under the clusters, but they were just totally ignored. Why are we not seeing that being revived, and why are we not seeing those types of investments happening now? If we know that this is going to be an ongoing thing, why aren't we making that investment here in Canada?
Again, I find it so frustrating, because we're willing to invest in other countries and we're willing to buy from other countries, yet if you want something from Canada, it seems like you have to go to the U.S. to get it, whether it's electronics or wine or anything else. Now it's vaccines.
Can you explain that to me? Maybe it's unfair to ask you.
Chief Executive Officer, Providence Therapeutics
I can't get into specific case scenarios, Randy. What I can say, though, is that a lot of the focus seems to be on the manufacturing, getting the large fill-finish facilities and being able to go and cut a ribbon and say, “Look—we're making these here.”
The truth of the matter is that there's an overbuild going on throughout the entire world for manufacturing capacity. Everybody's doing the same thing Canada's doing, and they're building up manufacturing everywhere. In five years, if this pandemic tampers down, or even if it just mitigates somewhat, we're going to have such an overwhelming oversupply of biomanufacturing capacity that it's going to be breathtaking.
What they won't have are the products to go into those facilities. Besides Providence, there are fantastic companies doing tremendous R and D in Canada. We keep talking about the manufacturing, but manufacturing will come where there are successful products. We didn't have to go out and create new manufacturing in order to do what we're doing at Providence. We created a successful product and we found and secured the manufacturing necessary for it. Any group can do that.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
That feeds into the age-old argument about Canadian research: We're great at research, but we're horrible at bringing it to market—
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
—so we take that research and we give it to somebody like China, and then they bring it to market.
How do we change that?
Chief Executive Officer, Providence Therapeutics
Honestly, I have a strategy for that. I worked with The Terry Fox Foundation, The Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation, the Alberta Cancer Foundation, the OICR. We were going to prove that method out in cancer. It's on hold because of the pandemic. If anybody is interested in learning more about it, please feel free. I don't have time to go into the details at this meeting.
