International Trade Committee on May 3rd, 2021

[Daniel Breton]

We have seen a bit of that. Hopefully that's just something that will be resolved over the next few months. We're all crossing our fingers, but things are starting to look better. I'm not sure I have seen or heard much of that so far, honestly. I've talked to people who build electric buses and cars, and they go across the border. The quarantine is an issue, but I don't think it's such a big issue.

Between us, to be totally honest, the real issue is going to be finding qualified people to get those jobs. For the transition, we are looking for a lot of new and qualified people for mining, research and development, engineering, chemistry and assembly as well. This is already an issue. We have companies in the middle of a pandemic that can't find enough qualified people. Just imagine what it will be like after the pandemic. That's why we have to invest seriously in training and retraining workers.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Through you, again, I'll go straight back to Mr. Breton, please.

When it comes to products moving back and forth across the border, I believe for one automobile, as an example, a part can go back and forth across the border up to seven times. I'm kind of leaning on the buy America, buy American right now. In essence, many of our Canadian manufacturers are actually buying the raw products from the United States to assemble and to ship back to the United States in order to fill the major voids that they have on their side.

In the business world, it's only a good deal if it's good for both sides. I believe there's a bit of a bias here in that we have the opportunity to buy their goods to turn around and sell back to them. What can we do as a government—as a committee, quite frankly—to bridge that gap and to make it fairer for Canadian businesses?

[Daniel Breton]

I think that, honestly, because of the fact that we have a lot of knowledge in Canada regarding electric mobility, whether it's for light or heavy-duty.... We have research centres. We also have the minerals and materials that the Americans need. A lot of the stuff that goes into clean technology and clean cars is in the mining areas in Canada.

It is not a coincidence that President Biden decided to talk about a U.S.-Canada agreement on electric mobility, EVs and batteries, because we have these materials. For us, it's a negotiation point because we can use that to say let's work together in building a North American EV strategy that will make us stronger. Since Europe has started their strategy, electric vehicle sales have gone way up. They passed ahead of China last year while we were in the middle of a pandemic.

For geopolitical implications as well as economic implications, we have to work together with the U.S. We have what people are looking for. Right now most mining and refining of these critical minerals and metals are done in Asia—especially in China. We have to ensure our economic stability and have some previsibility from an economic standpoint for the EV world.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Breton.

We go on to Mr. Arya for five minutes, please.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question will be for Mr. Daniel Breton.

Mr. Breton, what you have talked about, the national security issue, is so important. Unfortunately, many Canadians are still not aware of what is happening in the energy world.

When you talk about batteries, I'm sure you know and many others may know that it is not just limited to electric vehicles. You are also talking about batteries for energy storage, which greatly improves the viability of a lot of the renewable energy generation that you are talking about.

A trillion-dollar transportation segment is moving fast, but unfortunately, many Canadians are still not aware of what is happening there. I'm so glad that you are here talking about these things.

Canada and the U.S. recently agreed to strengthen the Canada-U.S. joint action plan on critical minerals collaboration, which you also mentioned. We have some of the rare minerals and other critical minerals for battery generation. This joint action plan is to target a net-zero industrial transformation, batteries for zero-emission vehicles and renewable energy storage.

We have agreed with the U.S., and many people, many Canadians, are not aware that in the recent budget we proposed a critical battery mineral centre of excellence at Natural Resources Canada. This would coordinate federal policies and programs on critical minerals and work with provinces, territories and other partners. That is also very important. In the recent budget, again, many Canadians are not aware that we have invested in federal research and development to advance critical battery mineral processing and refining expertise.

The U.S. has also only recently woken up to the fact that battery manufacturing is critical, whereas in the world, I think, as of today, some people think that the manufacturing capacity is still in China, with some technologies with some Japanese manufacturers and Korean manufacturers. If I'm not wrong, in the U.S. as of today, there are about five major battery manufacturing facilities with investments of over $2 billion each, so it is very critical and I'm glad that you're talking about it.

Can you let us know or can you re-emphasize what we need to do? I personally have been calling for a Canada-wide task force to make sure that we have a comprehensive strategy to develop minerals, to develop technologies and to develop a manufacturing industry in batteries.

Can you re-emphasize what it is we need to look at in the short, medium and long term on the issue of batteries development, which, as you rightly have pointed out several times, is a national security issue?

[Daniel Breton]

Thank you for talking about that. To me, it's very important. I have said it many times over the past years.

Regarding critical minerals and metals, I remember the first people I heard talk about that came from the Pentagon, from the U.S. government. They said that, for national security reasons, we have to look into that, because it's not just for electric vehicles and renewables. It's also for the military when we're talking about strategic minerals and metals. That's why it's so important for geopolitical reasons.

We at EMC, obviously, are not in the arms business, but when we talk about developing a Canadian electric mobility strategy, it's to make sure that we understand the whole ecosystem of electric mobility that ranges from light-duty vehicles to heavy-duty vehicles, from mining, to assembly, to research and development, and we don't have that now.

I was in charge of the first electric mobility strategy in Canada when I was in the Government of Quebec back almost 10 years ago. We need a comprehensive plan for Canada, and that's why I'm really proud to say that, in collaboration with other stakeholders in Canada, we will announce in June a Canadian ZEV supply chain alliance to work together to come up with a plan for the Canadian industry to talk to the Canadian government.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

My time is limited.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, Mr. Arya, but your time is up.

Mr. Breton, thank you for your very valuable information.

We'll go to Mr. Savard-Tremblay, for two and a half minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Breton, you were saying earlier that a policy is not just about programs and money.

What does a coherent policy look like in an area such as the electrification of transportation?

[Daniel Breton]

Once we have a policy, we need a “strategy” or an “action plan”, call it what you will. We have to decide on the steps we need to take, to choose projects to tackle in a certain timeframe, and to allocate money to those projects. That is how we proceeded in the Government of Quebec. Governments in Europe are in the process of doing the same. China is far ahead of us. The reality is that, in Canada, we currently have about 100 electric buses on the roads, but in China, they have more than half a million.

We have talked a lot about climate change and the carbon footprint. That is perfectly logical, but we must never forget that air pollution is also an issue. Air pollution is the biggest killer on the planet, and it is caused by what comes out of chimneys on factories and exhaust pipes on vehicles.

In a study published in Canada only a few months ago, in February 2021, I think, the economic cost of air pollution was estimated at $120 billion annually. The transition to renewable energy and clean transportation could help to save thousands of lives. It is estimated that air pollution causes 15,300 deaths each year, eight times more than the deaths caused by traffic accidents.

Moreover, by manufacturing green products for electric transportation, we will be improving people's quality of life and saving billions of dollars. If we export them, we will be saving lives all around the world.

Health is therefore an extremely important issue. We sometimes tend to forget that.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Do I still have a little time, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 40 seconds.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Let us end by going back to your last comment.

I am sure that you have heard the story that has been fashionable for a few years, that electric vehicles are as polluting, if not more polluting, than gas-powered vehicles.

What do you think of that?

[Daniel Breton]

I wrote a book on electric vehicles. It was published two weeks ago, on the occasion of Earth Day. It is my sixth book.

The reality is that electric vehicles emit fewer greenhouse gases and pollute less, wherever they are made and however the electricity needed to make them is produced. You can be in Quebec, in Manitoba, in Alberta or in British Columbia; electric vehicles are always cleaner than equivalent gas-powered vehicles, and they are getting even cleaner.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We'll move on to Mr. Blaikie, for two and a half minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Breton, could you give us some more details about that?

Why are those arguments, that electric vehicles pollute more than gas-powered vehicles, not valid?

[Daniel Breton]

Actually, electric vehicles pollute less and less because the ways in which electricity is produced are greener and greener. To give you an idea, in 2009, in about half the states of the USA, 48% of Americans believed that an electric vehicle polluted less than a gas-powered vehicle.

Last year, in 42 of the 50 American states, 94% believed that an electric vehicle polluted less than an equivalent gas-powered vehicle. In the eight other states, they thought that hybrid vehicles polluted least. So the Americans believe that no gas-powered vehicle pollutes less than vehicle that is partially or wholly electric.

According to a study that I worked on and on which I am collaborating with officials from the National Research Council Canada, vehicles that are partially or wholly electric always emit fewer greenhouse gases than equivalent gas-powered vehicles. This applies in Alberta, where 92% of the electricity is produced by fossil fuel, or in Manitoba, Quebec or Ontario.

We were saying earlier that the price of solar panels has dropped a lot. The price of batteries for electric vehicle has also dropped, by about 85% since 2010. We forecast that it will continue to do so, by about 50% by 2024-2025. The price of electric vehicles should therefore be equal to gas-powered vehicles by 2024-2025. In addition, the air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions from electric vehicles are dropping year after year. Between 2013 and 2019, for batteries, the greenhouse gas emissions per kilowatt hour dropped by 65%. By 2024-2025, we anticipate a further decrease of 50%. In addition, as battery components are almost 95% recyclable, whereas gasoline is no longer recyclable once it is burned, electric vehicles will be 10 times less polluting than gas-powered vehicles.

Electric vehicles are therefore increasingly clean and efficient. In the same period of time, gas-powered vehicles are causing more and more pollution problems, because the technologies have not kept pace.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Breton.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, Mr. Blaikie. Your time is up.

We move on to Mr. Lobb, for five minutes, please.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Breton.

I know there's been talk about what's cleaner and what isn't cleaner and all that. One question I have for you is this. The first generation of electric vehicles en masse will be coming to the end of their lives in the next five to seven years, likely. There are going to be thousands or tens of thousands, I suppose, of batteries.

First, what's the plan for those? Second, does Canada have an opportunity to be a world leader in the breakdown and recycling of those batteries? It's a two-pronged question.

[Daniel Breton]

The plan is for companies to work with manufacturers to recycle batteries. There are two very important companies. One, in Ontario, is called Li-Cycle, and the other is Lithion, in Quebec. They work on recycling batteries for electric vehicles.

They can recycle up to 95% of the components of the batteries. This is a real plus, because once you get back those materials, you can build batteries for a cheaper price and you don't have to go back to mine more materials.

As I said before, what's very different when you compare an electric vehicle with a gas vehicle is that once the gas is burnt, you can't recycle it. There's a big difference there. There's a big plus.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is for Heliene.

We've talked about the issues with tariffs into the United States, which are unfortunate. When you're looking at the rest of the world—and maybe I missed this in your discussions—where have you identified areas that you have a natural ability to sell to or where you think you're going to increase your sales as years move forward?

[Martin Pochtaruk]

Thank you.

We have to steer away from where the Chinese are the leaders. That means staying within North America and going into Mexico, Latin America and the Caribbean. The Caribbean is an area in which Canadian engineering companies are very strong. We have to rely on that.

Once we get out of the immediate geographic area, I would say it's sub-Saharan Africa—all of the African continent, really.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I apologize if I missed this, but are you currently selling into those markets at this time, or is this something you've identified?