Evidence of meeting #108 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mexico.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Catherine Cobden  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Steel Producers Association
Ryan Greer  Vice President, Public Affairs and National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Lana Payne  National President, Unifor
François Desmarais  Director, Trade and Industry Affairs, Canadian Steel Producers Association
Angelo DiCaro  Director, Research Department, Unifor
Stuart Trew  Senior Researcher, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Brian Kingston  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association
David Wiens  President, Dairy Farmers of Canada
Daniel Gobeil  Vice-President, Dairy Farmers of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

I will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 108 of the Standing Committee on International Trade.

I have a quick message about audio feedback. To all members and people participating in person, you'll see a little card on your desk and a place where you can put your earpiece when not in use. These measures will protect the health and safety of all participants, including our interpreters.

Some of you are participating virtually. This is a hybrid format. To members in the room, raise your hand if you want to speak. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Before we get to the witnesses, we have a couple of items we must deal with. I hope we'll deal with them very quickly so we can get on to the study.

You should have received a copy of the revised travel budget from the clerk. Is the committee in agreement to adopt the budget in the amount of $162,031.38 for the committee's proposed travel to Ecuador?

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

We also have a budget for the study of the CUSMA review. You should have received a copy of that from the clerk. Is the committee in agreement to adopt the budget for the study in the amount of $14,000?

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

Excellent. We're so agreeable today. Wonderful.

We have two panels of witnesses today.

In our first panel, from the Canadian Steel Producers Association, we have Catherine Cobden, president and chief executive officer, and François Desmarais, director of trade and industry affairs. From Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, we have Ryan Greer, vice-president, public affairs and national policy. From Unifor, we have Lana Payne, national president, and Angelo DiCaro, director of research.

Welcome, everyone. Thank you for coming to this study, which I think will be an important one.

You will have opening statements of five minutes. I will try to keep you on time as much as possible, but I will give a bit of leeway.

We will start with Ms. Cobden.

I invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Catherine Cobden President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Steel Producers Association

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the standing committee. It's great to be back to address the committee on behalf of the Canadian Steel Producers Association. As mentioned, I'm joined by François Desmarais, our director of trade.

As you all know, CSPA is the voice of the Canadian steel sector and our pipe and tube industry. We have 13 members across the country from Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and, now, Newfoundland and Labrador. We represent pretty much 100% of the steel production in the country, and we have 123,000 direct and indirect jobs that are part of our industry.

Our steel ends up in a wide range of products. When you look around, steel is everywhere, and our main customers are in the integrated North American automotive, construction and energy sectors, to name some—there are many others. About half of our production, roughly six million tonnes, is shipped to the United States—around $8.5 billion U.S. annually.

These stats help the members of this committee appreciate how crucial it is for the steel industry to maintain access to the United States market and, frankly, the gains that we've made in the previous CUSMA. You will also appreciate that global steel trade plays a strong role in the Canada-U.S. trade relationship; hence, we are here today to reiterate some of our most interesting and important proposals in our hope to see a smooth and successful review of CUSMA in 2026.

First, we believe it's crucial that we keep pace with the United States, our largest trading partner, with a modernized and aligned trade remedy system. We strongly believe this will ensure a better position for Canada as we start discussions on a CUSMA review. An important development is that, in 2019, as part of the section 232 bilateral agreement, Canada committed to implementing a monitoring system of “melt and pour” for the steel industry. I am pleased to say that this past February Minister of International Trade Mary Ng announced that system, and it will be put fully in place for all steel imports into Canada by this coming November.

Canadian and American steel industries strongly welcome this development. We cannot stress enough that further delay will be unacceptable to full implementation, so we need to get that done.

The prospect of steel transshipment remains a very significant concern to the USTR, the United States trade representative. Transshipment is part of a larger phenomenon called “circumvention”. Canada has anti-circumvention laws to address this issue but, unfortunately, to date, no case has been taken either by the industry or the Canada Border Services Agency. This is an issue that the Americans care about deeply, and really, so does the Canadian steel industry. We feel it's very important that we rank anti-circumvention legislation updates and enhancements highly on our list of things to be done as we proceed into the CUSMA discussions.

Furthermore, the U.S. recently announced trade remedy improvements around very important trade policy, retroactive duties and how one goes about assessing unfair trade policies on state-owned enterprises. We need to keep pace and adopt the same approach. Frankly, these are things that, for many years, the Canadian steel industry has been asking for, and we'd like to see them brought forward. We think that it will be very helpful in putting our best foot forward as we enter those CUSMA discussions. Improving our trade system is how we protect the integrity of the North American market.

Last but not least, Canada has to adjust urgently to the evolving international steel trade order. In addition, in the face of intense challenges with international trade bodies, we need to consider adopting new tools to address industrial excess capacity. The U.S. administration did just that a couple of weeks ago. On May 14, the White House announced the imposition of a broad range of tariffs, under section 301, aimed at Chinese overcapacity, including the imposition of a 25% tariff on all Chinese steel entering the U.S. market. The CSPA believes Canada should and must follow suit.

As our major trading partners move to block or restrict excess high-carbon steel from entering their national markets, we believe Canada remains vulnerable to more Chinese steel. Although Canada currently has 18 tariffs on Chinese steel, China remains the third-largest exporter of steel into Canada. In addition to our domestic market concerns, we also believe the U.S. will be looking for specific leadership from Canada on how to address excess steel capacity from China.

Members of the committee, I'm happy to engage with you on these topics.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

Thank you very much.

Mr. Greer, I invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Ryan Greer Vice President, Public Affairs and National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, committee members, for having me here today on behalf of the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters.

Since 1871, CME has been helping manufacturers grow and improve the well-being of their workers and the communities in which they operate. We are pleased to participate in your study on the 2026 review of the Canada-United States-Mexico Agreement.

Unlike Canada's other trade relationships, which are primarily about competing for market share, our partnership with the U.S. and Mexico is about working together to compete with the rest of the world. We talk about Canada and U.S. trade, but that trade is really us making things together. Members of this committee will know better than most that the North American manufacturing bloc is world class in the quality and the cost of the things that it makes.

Building on NAFTA, CUSMA has succeeded in providing a solid foundation for North American trade by strengthening our regional economic ties while modernizing the provisions that govern them. While Canadian manufacturers consider CUSMA a success, Canada has not yet realized the full potential of the agreement in the first four years. There are under-utilized features, such as the competitiveness committee and the good regulatory practices committee, that have the potential to help propel Canadian and North American manufacturing even further forward.

For Canada's industrial economy, deeper North American economic integration is not only desirable but a necessity to compete at a time when the global economic and security environment is shifting beneath our feet. There are specific trade irritants, as there always have been and there always will be, that Canada must and should continue to try to address, both through the agreement itself and through sustained and serious bilateral and trilateral engagement with U.S. and Mexican decision-makers.

The ever-present buy American provisions that accompany U.S. federal investments stand out. Just earlier this week, I was speaking with a small manufacturer of large industrial mixing tanks. They do all of their manufacturing in Canada, with two-thirds of their sales into the U.S., which includes government procurement for municipal water treatment systems. They estimate that, because of the most recent “Build America, Buy America” provisions, they've lost approximately 300,000 to 400,000 dollars' worth of business, and they expect that trend to continue.

Unjustified tariffs on softwood lumber products, automobile rules of origin, Line 5 and Keystone pipeline issues, Mexican energy policies and even the ban on GMO corn have all come up and lingered since CUSMA came into force.

We also know that China's neo-mercantilist approach to international trade in the North American market will, as Catherine just alluded to, loom large in this review.

CME is supportive of efforts to improve Canada's trade remedy and import monitoring systems to defend from unfair practices, and we recognize that Canada is going to have to confront the rules-of-origin issues that have strong bipartisan support in Washington.

In addition to these, Canada has its own domestic issues that its CUSMA partners may describe as irritants, which we don't think can be avoided in the context of the upcoming review. One issue that we hear about most commonly from our CUSMA partners and manufacturers, specifically in the United States, is the increase in labour-related supply chain disruptions in our country. That includes, of course, last year's B.C. ports strike and the St. Lawrence Seaway strike, along with the threat this year of a stoppage at the port of Montreal, as well as a potential Canada-wide rail stoppage.

Transportation is the connective tissue that holds the North American trading relationship together. CME recommends that Canada do something to show it is serious about preventing these disruptions. In addition to the immediate direct harm that they impose on Canadian manufacturers, workers and their families, these disruptions undermine North American supply chains and the reputation of Canadian manufacturers with their cross-border partners and customers. CME was disappointed earlier this week that the House of Commons passed Bill C-58, which is legislation that will make this problem worse.

As we approach the 2026 review, Canada will also be faced with ongoing questions regarding its investments in national defence. As we saw from members of the U.S. Senate last week, we should not be surprised if decision-makers in the U.S. do not bifurcate their consideration of CUSMA and other major bilateral irritants, including Canada fulfilling its NATO commitments.

U.S. trade considerations are increasingly being driven by economic, national and supply chain security considerations and this trend will continue no matter who is in the White House. Notwithstanding these challenges, Canadian manufacturers are fortunate to be the participants in and beneficiaries of a regional economic relationship that is envied around the world.

As Canada navigates the next several months in the lead-up to the review, Canadian manufacturers will continue to work closely with governments, our colleagues at the U.S. National Association of Manufacturers and the Confederation of Industrial Chambers of Mexico to offer our support to preserve and promote a trade agreement that is, by and large, working well.

As part of those efforts, in November of this year, just a couple of weeks after the U.S. presidential election, CME will be hosting manufacturing leaders and senior decision-makers from across Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, just a few blocks from here in Ottawa, at a North American manufacturing summit. This will provide an important inflection point for our sector to take stock of the agreement and the political forces influencing it, and to reaffirm our joint commitment to continue to build the manufacturing ties between our countries.

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

Thank you very much, Mr. Greer.

Ms. Payne, please go ahead for up to five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Lana Payne National President, Unifor

Thank you and good afternoon, Mr. Chair, members of the committee and my fellow panellists, one of whom I will disagree with vehemently on his statement on Bill C-58, but that's not why we're here today.

As you know, I'm Lana Payne, and I'm the national president of Unifor, Canada's largest union in the private sector, representing over 320,000 working people across this country. I'm joined by our director of research, Angelo DiCaro, who is also our in-house expert on trade.

I want to thank you for this invitation to participate on behalf of our members, many of whom—thousands and tens of thousands of them—work in industries affected and impacted by trade.

Let me start by saying that Canada's trade policy is a key aspect of our country's broader industrial strategy. Sadly, since the NAFTA, Canada has suffered from a lack of ambition regarding industrial development. This lack of vision has had governments sleepwalk into a series of unhelpful free trade arrangements and agreements with the voices and concerns of workers largely ignored and dismissed.

All of this changed when the NAFTA was renegotiated. The government deserves credit, not for salvaging a deal that caused immeasurable harm to workers but for presenting a bold, progressive economic vision for this country that underpinned its negotiating strategy with workers' voices at the forefront. This was a welcome break from the past.

The study you've undertaken ahead of the scheduled six-year review of the CUSMA is necessary and timely, and we thank you for it. U.S. officials aren't mincing words right now when they tell us not to get too comfortable ahead of these talks. Long-standing U.S. complaints, whether on Canada's supply-managed dairy or on digital trade, are on the radar. The USTR has already held consultations on the CUSMA auto trade. Canada cannot approach this review on its back foot.

We must remind Americans how interdependent our industrial economies have become, but we can't shy away from communicating our own concerns. There are obvious gaps in the CUSMA and our trinational trading relations that this review can and should address. I'll share some of the ones that are top of mind for Unifor.

With regard to forestry, the softwood lumber dispute has dragged on for eight years, impacting Canadian firms with unjustified tariffs. This sector is currently facing economic and serious headwinds, including mill closures and job losses, and these trade penalties are adding pressure to an already struggling industry. They must be removed.

With regard to aluminum, the monitoring of imports that circumvent and undermine the benefits of our decarbonization efforts must be strengthened. Aluminum is a strategic metal and should benefit from the same processing requirements that apply to steel under the auto rules of origin—you've just heard about those.

With regard to labour rights, much is being done to clean up Mexico's labour system. The CUSMA's rapid response mechanism is helping remediate and deter labour rights violations and also renew Mexico's democratic trade unions. This mechanism works, and it must be extended, including to workplaces in the U.S. and Canada, and I'll tell you why.

A recent union vote at a Mercedes plant in Alabama, in the United States, was strained by threats and intimidation towards workers, not unlike we've seen at Mexican car factories. Canada should demand a full investigation into this trade-distorting behaviour, especially since Canada has a deal to supply Mercedes with lithium, cobalt and other critical minerals. Canada should also clearly signal to the U.S. its intent to revisit a proposal to deem right-to-work laws a violation of the CUSMA labour chapter.

In the auto sector, there is an opportunity to link our trade and industrial strategies. Labour value content rules were set at $16 U.S. per hour in 2020, but they have not increased since. These labour rates must be updated along with the CUSMA's current list of core auto parts to reflect new EV technologies, like e-motors.

Canada must discuss with the U.S. the raising of its WTO tariff on light-duty vehicles, which currently sits at 2.5%, hardly enough to ensure compliance with the CUSMA's complex rules of origin. Canada must also take seriously the threat of Chinese EV imports, which are subsidized through forced labour, excessive subsidies, tech theft and other means. Canada must be vigilant in guarding against transshipments and prepare itself to take action in conjunction with the United States.

Unifor will obviously continue to monitor this review that you're conducting and will remain available for further discussions. We look forward to answering any questions you may have for us today.

Thanks very much.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

Thank you very much.

We will now turn to our rounds of questions.

Our first round will be with Mr. Baldinelli for six minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for joining us today. I'm going to begin with Ms. Cobden.

As we approach the 2026 review period for CUSMA, a number of issues have come to the forefront. For example, in May, U.S. steel producers urged the U.S. administration to update CUSMA with the goal of addressing what they viewed as loopholes in the agreement.

You touched on this with respect to circumvention rules and tariffs. Are these assertions about CUSMA's provisions regarding rules of origin accurate? You also talked about the lack of enforcement by CBSA on transshipment.

What can Canada do better to respond to those issues?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Steel Producers Association

Catherine Cobden

I will say that Canada has anti-circumvention legislation, which is a good thing and which should be communicated to the U.S., of course, but we definitely see that it needs an upgrade. We can prove that it needs an upgrade, as I described in my remarks, by showing that we haven't been able to take cases under it. We won't take cases if we think we're going to lose, so we need to transform that legislation in a few significant ways. It's quite a technical topic, so we'd be happy to provide some—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Could you please share that with the committee?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Steel Producers Association

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I'll talk about the sector's competitiveness. You previously appeared when we were studying the Inflation Reduction Act. The U.S. is currently committing about $6 billion for what they say are 33 manufacturing projects for steel and aluminum with the aim of making the U.S. “one of the first nations in the world to convert clean hydrogen into clean steel, bolstering the U.S. steel industry's competitiveness as the world's cleanest major steel producer.” This is according to a quote from President Biden's release.

I'm sure you will agree that it's tough to compete when you're seeing investments such as $6 billion for 33 new manufacturing facilities. In your testimony at our last session on the IRA, you mentioned, to state the obvious, that the IRA takes an enabling approach to the climate change challenge. A carbon price is not envisioned.

In contrast, over the next eight years, the Canadian steel industry faces significant increases in carbon costs, with carbon pricing rising to $170 a tonne by 2030. How does that impact the sector's competitiveness? When you see this IRA and the huge investments taking place in the United States and we have a taxation policy that's not in alignment with the United States, we're almost tying the hands of the sector and putting one hand behind your back. How can Canadian steel producers compete?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Steel Producers Association

Catherine Cobden

I really stand by my previous testimony that the U.S. has taken a very strong carrots approach. The more they build up their carrots—their buffet of carrots, as I was calling it earlier today—the more challenging it will be to compete and the more unlevel our playing field will be.

Canadian steel producers have the talent. We have the equipment. We have the modernized facilities, if you will. We have the transportation networks. We have the proximity to the market as well, in both Canada and the United States. However, we do not benefit from the scale of the carrots that exist in the United States.

Furthermore, as per my previous testimony, we have not just carrots here in Canada; we have carrots and sticks. To elaborate further, the carrot that we were discussing was the IRA, but I want to emphasize that there are also additional things in the United States, such as the trade policy I was describing. We have to get the playing field as close to level as possible between Canada and the United States. That means aligning on trade policy. That means aligning as much as possible on carbon policy. This is what it's going to take.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Would that include the recent announcement by President Biden to increase the tariff rate up to 25% by 2024? Do you believe that is something Canada should look at as well?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Steel Producers Association

Catherine Cobden

Yes, we really do encourage the government to take a close look at this. We think it's doable. I've said in the press that we would welcome tariffs at our borders as well.

In my testimony I referred to it as an aspect of alignment with the United States, but it's also extraordinarily important for the Canadian domestic industry. As you can appreciate, the more shields that go up in our major trading partner and the fewer shields we have, the more exposed we are to dumping and egregious trade practices.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you.

I'd like to go to Mr. Greer, if I could.

Recently Frank Stronach published a story titled “If no one wants to invest in Canada, what does that say about our country?” In this article, the author writes “that foreign investors sold nearly $50 billion worth of Canadian equities in 2023—the largest exodus of securities investment dollars in our history.”

Mr. Greer, last year, for the first time, Mexico passed Canada's position as being the number one trade partner with the U.S. What is your reaction to this?

3:50 p.m.

Vice President, Public Affairs and National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

Ryan Greer

When I think of Canada's industrial economy, the stock of capital in Canada's manufacturing sector has been trending down since 2000, so this is a long-term trend that has been incredibly problematic for Canada's manufacturing sector, whereas it continues to climb to record highs in the U.S.

What that means is that our manufacturing sector is becoming less competitive on the global stage. There is no one single silver bullet solution to this, but there is the requirement of governments at all levels to take a very strong look at tax, regulatory, trade, trade infrastructure and other factors that will promote business investment in Canada. That's investment in capital machinery and stock that will allow manufacturers to modernize and compete within both the North American market and globally. To date, that has been lacking.

The cost of doing business across the border, even compared to some of our U.S. counterparts, is much higher, and that impacts all of those things that you just outlined.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

We'll now go to Mr. Sheehan for six minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My first question will be for Catherine.

Thank you very much for the presentation, and thank you for your leadership for the steel producers.

In 2016, the steel producers came to see me, before you were on board, and talked about some of the measures they wanted to see in place.

In the first budget in 2016, it was happening quickly right after the election, so we were able to get in a couple at first. One was basically keeping the length of the penalty in place longer, which is good, as we were starting to think about these things. Then the second one was the consultation. We consulted heavily, which then informed us in future budgets as to where we would strengthen the trade regime in various ways that you mentioned in your presentation.

In the 2024 budget, there is a commitment and funding and resources for a new market watch unit. Can you describe to us why that's important? What, in your view, would this unit be charged with doing?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Steel Producers Association

Catherine Cobden

That's no problem. I'm happy to describe that. That's another development.

Before I discuss market watch in particular, I'd like to say that the thing we have to keep in mind about the trade remedy system is that cheaters keep cheating, and they keep evolving their approach. It's extremely important that we always upgrade and upscale further our trade remedy tools to ensure we're catching the cheaters, frankly.

Market watch is the newest development that was announced in the budget. It's an announcement of $10 million over three years. Obviously, our view is that it needs to be permanent, but it's a really important step forward. It's going to look at upgrading something called the normal values. It's upgrading, on a regular basis, something that currently is discretionary in the trade remedy system. We welcomed it. We want to know more details, but we think it's certainly a step in the right direction with respect to enforcement. I look forward to the consultations with the Canada Border Services Agency to ensure that we get this right.