International Trade Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[Nancy Wilson]

Actually, over 80% of women start their businesses using personal credit. That's actually identified as a problem, because they incur all this personal debt. It tends to hurt their credit score, when they should be building their business credit score.

Then, when they build up their business a bit, they go to approach a bank for a business loan. They may have some good revenue coming in and some good cash flow. However, because their businesses tend to be in sectors where they don't have a lot of actual physical collateral to provide, the bank will often ask them for a personal guarantee. They check their credit score, and their personal credit score is not so good, because they have all this personal debt sitting on them.

There's always the question of whether you can self-finance your business. It's the ideal. If you have this nest egg, that's a great thing; however, it's a double-edged sword, I would say.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Fortier, my next question is for you, but I invite you to take your turn answering this question first, if you like.

[Valérie Fortier]

I would like to add something.

Most of the time, farm women will start businesses much later in their lives. They often raise their children first or work to build a business with their spouse. So they do invisible work, as there is no salary attached. When they want to go and borrow, they don't have a credit record, because they've always done invisible work and haven't really had a salary. You can't use that as an argument to go seek financing to launch a business.

That explains to some extent why it is more difficult to start a business in the agricultural sector when you are over 40. All funding programs are designed for the next generation. The maximum age of eligibility is 40 years and 364 days or, in some cases, 39 years and 364 days. So women over 40 have a great deal of difficulty starting a business.

In the dairy sector, for example, women are giving up their business shares to the next generation and would like to start other businesses, whether in horticulture or berry production. But the main farm can't finance their project, because of farm debt. Then, when these women go to financial institutions, they're told that they have more years of work behind them than ahead of them. However, it must be understood that these newly created businesses will also eventually be transferred to the next generation.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Fortier.

I have another question for you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 26 seconds.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

From what you've seen, what impact do high taxes have on farmers and small business owners in the agricultural sector?

[Valérie Fortier]

Of course, the new realities of climate change, bringing heavy rains and temperature variations, are having an impact on sales. We're seeing more and more cases of agricultural businesses with less income. What's more, high taxes and interest rates are jeopardizing the future viability of these businesses. The situation is challenging, especially for small businesses, but also for large ones, which have to make major investments. For example, for a company located in a remote area, there are significant transportation costs. This just adds to the burden on companies, at a time when we're trying to make them more efficient. At some point, it becomes—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Fortier, I'm so sorry to interrupt. There was an extra minute there. Thank you so much.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Fortier.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We have Ms. Fortier for six minutes, please.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

This time, the chair is addressing me, the other Ms. Fortier. Ms. Fortier, you and I have the same last name. It is a pleasure to meet you. Maybe we are related.

I sincerely thank all the witnesses for being here today. This committee study is really important. It's about looking at what the federal government is doing right and what it could be doing more of. The experience and expertise of witnesses like the ones we're hearing from today will enable the federal government to focus on what it can do to foster greater participation and equality for women.

I'll start with you, Ms. Bradbury. I am pleased to see you here today.

Earlier, you gave some examples of women. My question will perhaps allow you to expand on that. Let's delve into the potential participation of women in entrepreneurship. The committee is studying this matter and I wonder if we can exceed the 16% threshold for women-owned businesses.

Is there potential there? And if so, how do we unlock it?

[Nathalie Bradbury]

Absolutely, there is potential, and it's just the beginning. A lot has been done so far, especially under the women entrepreneurship strategy, through funding and programs, for example. That's the whole-of-government approach. All of that helps. Even though the movement started before these measures were introduced, things are really taking off now. That will definitely continue.

I also see what immigrant women bring to the table. I am a first-generation immigrant. At OWIT-Ottawa, three out of ten women are first-generation immigrants. We also have three women who are Black, indigenous or people of colour. That gives us a variety of perspectives. We're a very open organization, with highly educated people. When people are educated, they do things a little differently from immigrants in the past, for example, who would buy a franchise and then work to build that business.

There are some great examples of women doing very exciting things.

I will just mention Nita Tandon, a health scientist. She is one of our members, and she wanted to create safe, plastic-free containers for her daughters' lunches and snacks after BPA was considered a health hazard. Not finding them, she created her own stainless steel containers, which are now sold in Canada, the U.S. and New Zealand. This is retail.

I mention this for the benefit of Mr. Savard‑Tremblay, who was interested in this matter earlier. Even though it's retail, it's also state-of-the-art technology that is very good—

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time.

[Nathalie Bradbury]

I understand. I'm sorry.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

That's great. If there are any other examples of women entrepreneurs you would like to share with us, we would certainly be happy to hear them.

Now I'd like to turn to you, Ms. Wilson. You will probably also be able to answer my question on the potential participation of women in entrepreneurship, given that your organization is well represented across the country.

[Nancy Wilson]

Yes, absolutely. From my perspective, I have great optimism that those numbers can go up. I think there are a couple of different things that we need to do.

I have a lot of answers to this question. I'll focus on one.

I think we need to look beyond gender. We need to realize that when we look at equity, equality and advancing those topics, we can't look at one silo or one issue in a vacuum. We have the women entrepreneurship strategy. We have the Black entrepreneurship program and the 2SLGBTQI+ entrepreneurship program. We really need to start looking at underserved and equity-deserving groups and developing programs and sustainable long-term funding for advancing equity and equality en masse for all of those groups.

I started CanWCC in 2018. Two years later, we were hit by COVID. It felt so false to me to continue to be talking about gender equity and equality when it wasn't just women. Oh, women were certainly pounded pretty hard during COVID, but so many equity-seeking groups were suffering.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'm going to have to cut you off, because, unfortunately, my time is running out.

I just want to inform members that I'm submitting a motion to the clerk so that we can study it at a later time, because we currently have guests. I just want to give a motion to extend the study, and you will receive this motion.

[Nancy Wilson]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Let's continue on here for the moment, if we can.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, you have six minutes, please.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

My first question is for Valérie Fortier.

I am very glad that you are here, because you are very familiar with the very specific reality of women farmers. I represent the riding of Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, which is home to a very large number of women farmers. I really wanted you to be here today, and I'm eager to hear what you have to say.

On October 8, your organization published the results of a Leger survey it had commissioned. According to the results of this survey, 90% of women farmers report living with a high or very high mental load. One of the factors identified was multi-tasking. Respondents reported that they performed an average of 5.1 different jobs within their farm business.

To your knowledge, is the situation different among male farmers? If so, what explains that difference?

[Valérie Fortier]

Yes, there is a difference. When it comes to manual, farm-related tasks, it's similar. Conversely, women have more additional tasks. They handle more household chores, more subsidy applications, more accounting, more of their children's appointments and even their spouses' appointments.

In addition, the study shows that the weather has a major impact on women's work. They are often the ones who have to schedule work performed by custom operators such as seeding or harvesting, and that work has to be scheduled based on weather forecasts. That is an extra burden for women.

In addition, women deal more with the labourers on the farm. Men deal less with employees.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Now, the big question is this: What can we do to help women farmers manage their multiple responsibilities?

[Valérie Fortier]

That is precisely one of the requests that have been made to the Union des producteurs agricoles in the past. We pushed the government to bring in foreign workers to help women on their farms. Let's not forget that 27% of farm owners or co-owners are women. In some cases, the men work outside and the women have to take care of the children, make dinner and clean the house. We tried to see whether it was possible to hire foreign workers to do housework or watch the children. As we know, day care centres are not set up for farming communities. We need day cares with non-standard schedules. We're trying to set up that kind of thing, but it's hard to do it without funding. We're trying to start a pilot project in the Lower St. Lawrence, but it's not easy.

In short, we would like to be able to hire foreign workers to do more work related to home and family.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

To what extent does this mental load affect women farmers’ desire to run a business or their state of mind?

[Valérie Fortier]

The heavier the mental load, the more isolated women will be within their business. The suicide rate in the agricultural sector is increasing. The greater the mental load, the more isolated women become. When they have fewer social connections and are alone, things come to a head at some point.