Evidence of meeting #125 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kurt Niquidet  President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council
Robert Laplante  Managing Director, Institut de recherche en économie contemporaine
Jerome Pelletier  Vice-President, Sawmills, J.D. Irving Limited and Chair, New Brunswick Lumber Producers
Wayne Harder  W&M Enterprises

The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)) Liberal Judy Sgro

I'm calling the meeting to order.

This is meeting 125 of the Standing Committee on International Trade.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 23, 2024, the committee is commencing a study of recent developments concerning the Canada-United States softwood lumber trade dispute.

We have with us, from the BC Lumber Trade Council, Kurt Niquidet, by video conference. We also have Robert Laplante, managing director, Institut de recherche en économie contemporaine, also by video conference.

Welcome to you all.

We will start with opening remarks and then proceed to rounds of questions.

You have up to five minutes, gentlemen.

Mr. Niquidet, you have the floor.

Kurt Niquidet President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and the committee today.

My name is Kurt Niquidet. I am the president of the BC Lumber Trade Council, and I represent the majority of softwood lumber producers in British Columbia.

The B.C. forest sector contributes significantly to the economy. In 2022 the industry supported 100,000 jobs, contributed over $17 billion to GDP and provided $6 billion to government revenue. Forest products are B.C.'s second-largest export category, and B.C. is the largest lumber-producing region in Canada. We represent about 40% of our softwood lumber exports to the United States.

Since the expiration of the last softwood lumber agreement in 2016, over 10 billion dollars' worth of duties have been collected and now sit on deposit. Duties recently increased to about 14% and are projected to double next year. The duties have the effect of raising prices in the U.S., hurting U.S. consumers of softwood lumber. They also have a significant impact on the Canadian sector, lowering production and employment, which hurts thousands of communities that rely on forestry. Canada's share of the U.S. market has dropped from over 30% to around 24% today. In its place, there has been increased U.S. production, as well as increased imports from European countries that are not subject to duties.

While the duties are unjustified and unfair, the CUSMA dispute mechanism process has been very slow and needs improvement. This long-standing fight needs to end. The B.C. industry stands shoulder to shoulder and will continue to work with governments to reach a new agreement.

Thanks very much.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. Laplante, go ahead, please.

Robert Laplante Managing Director, Institut de recherche en économie contemporaine

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Members of the committee, I am pleased to share with you our response as researchers from the Institut de recherche en économie contemporaine, or IREC.

For several years now, IREC has been examining the forest industry's place both within Quebec's economy and its international trade. It is truly no surprise that the issue of tariffs is once again the subject of a major dispute between the United States and Canada.

In that respect, I don't think it can be described as a true crisis. As stated by the previous witness, the imposition of these duties is certainly unjustified and, in many ways, illegitimate. However, this is not a true crisis, even if it causes significant disruption. Even if people chose to designate these disruptions as a crisis, they would still have to recognize that this is actually a trend that is characteristic of the United States' position on this matter.

In essence, we're not dealing with a problem of legal interpretation. We are in a situation of trade power dynamics. Those power dynamics can be corrected through the law. In this regard, the courts have demonstrated in the past that this perspective was justified and that Canada had every right to request remedial measures. However, the law does not remove the power dynamic. It simply shifts it.

In essence, we're faced with competition that is supported by the use of tariffs. That competition is the subject of consensus among Democratic and Republican representatives in Washington. It essentially goes back to the fact that, in previous years, we missed opportunities presented by rulings, even favourable ones.

We really must consider a major restructuring of the Canadian industry, insofar as reforms should lead the industry to better create added value. The softwood lumber crisis is very much one of production that is less and less relevant in a niche that can be replaced: commodities. We need a Canadian industry that is more focused on added value. In this regard, previous opportunities should have shown us that there needs to be a much stronger response from Canada's forestry companies.

Quebec adjusted its forestry regime to make it perfectly consistent with the requirements and expectations of our American interlocutors. However, despite those adjustments, nothing can dampen the challenges. In fact, what can dampen them is shifting the industry and our trade relationships to other niche markets, to ensure that powerful incentives support stronger industry responsiveness and divert some of the commodity production to manufactured goods with improved processing. In that respect, we have an opportunity to merge an industrial policy with our commercial interests by taking full advantage of the housing crisis, which requires a greater effort from the construction sector.

In addition, we should aim, through incentives and appropriate industrial policy, to have Canadian companies acquire a greater share of the domestic market for processed goods. This will allow us to better position the Canadian industry in relation to exports to the United States, but also to other markets. Our over‑reliance on the U.S. market makes us doubly vulnerable. It makes us vulnerable, on the one hand, to challenges and, on the other hand, to a certain numbness in production, because the industry, which is overly comfortable in a market that is becoming too familiar, will become less responsive and, perhaps, a bit lazy.

Under the circumstances, I think we should continue efforts to correct the litigation, but we need to get out of this mess by incentivizing the industry to become more dynamic and creative. There are encouraging signs in that respect, but much greater government involvement is needed.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Laplante.

We'll go on to committee members. We have Mr. Williams for six minutes, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all our witnesses here today. This is a very important study. We're talking about the softwood lumber tariffs and their impact on the industry here in Canada. This industry employs about 400,000 people across Canada, so we have some witnesses today from certain provinces that employ quite a few members and stakeholders. After nine years and three U.S. presidents, the Prime Minister has failed to secure a softwood lumber deal, killing jobs in Canada.

To give some key stats on that from Statistics Canada, between 2015 and 2021, Canada's forestry sector experienced a decline of 90,000 jobs, from 300,000 to 210,000 positions. It was quite possibly the largest decline of any single sector in Canada. We had the Prime Minister on late night TV about a month ago, saying this was just a small issue.

Mr. Niquidet, you are representing your province. Can you tell me if this is a small issue, and what has the impact been on jobs in your province since 2015?

11:15 a.m.

President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Kurt Niquidet

Thanks for the question. As I alluded to, the B.C. forest sector is very important for the province of British Columbia, so we believe it is a significant issue. The duties have had a sizable impact on the sector. There are a number of different factors, but the duties have been contributing to lower production as well as job losses. We've seen, since 2016, over 10,000 jobs lost, and that's just the direct jobs. There are spinoff effects within communities, the ripple effects that are also happening, so that just multiplies those impacts.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

That's a lot of jobs—indirectly many more. These are small communities. Lots of these lumber mills and these direct and indirect jobs are in smaller communities around B.C. Is that correct?

11:15 a.m.

President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Kurt Niquidet

Yes, really, the forest sector contributes throughout the province, but even within the Lower Mainland we find the sector has a sizable impact. However, really, in those rural communities the forestry sector, as a percentage of the employment opportunity, is just outside...and in some communities it's far and away the largest contributor to the rural economy.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

You mentioned in your opening comments that we're going to see, next year, tariffs doubling or going up. Tell me about that.

11:15 a.m.

President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Kurt Niquidet

Every year the Department of Commerce does what's called an administrative review. Just recently, this past year, in this last administrative review, we've seen duties move from about 8% to just over 15%. That was administrative review five. In terms of our early projections for administrative review six, we're expecting that duties could double again, to almost 30%, so this would take effect in August and will be devastating to the sector. This is where we feel there needs to be support for the sector going forward, and certainly for making an agreement with the U.S. a priority.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

How many jobs will be lost, and how many mills will close if that tariff is doubled?

11:15 a.m.

President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Kurt Niquidet

It's really hard to be precise at this stage, because it will depend on the broader market conditions at the time. Some of our preliminary estimates are that we could see a reduction of about 20% of the economic activity.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

That's huge. That's a lot of jobs.

11:15 a.m.

President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Kurt Niquidet

It's massive.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

That's going to be....

What are your members saying? Obviously, this is going to have a major impact. Do they feel that the government's made softwood lumber a priority in terms of getting a deal done? The last prime minister got a deal done in 79 days; it's been nine years. Do you feel this government's made softwood lumber a priority in trade negotiations?

11:15 a.m.

President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Kurt Niquidet

Yes. We've been working with the current government. Minister Ng has done a good job, she and her team, of raising this issue. We need a willing partner in the U.S. to come to the table. At the end of the day, we feel, thinking about history, that when we've actually gotten a deal, it comes from the highest levels of both governments, prime minister to president, so we think that after the election is done in the U.S., there's an opportunity to make sure we're engaging with the new administration and making this a priority.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

I'm a little surprised you think it's a good job, as it has been nine years. I'm also a little surprised you think we're going to find an easier government, no matter who gets in for the election.

In terms of other markets, we depend on the Americans for what percentage of our exports for lumber?

11:20 a.m.

President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Kurt Niquidet

Yes. For British Columbia I'd say that around 70% of our exports are destined for the U.S. It's probably higher for Canada as a whole. With B.C., we're situated on the west coast, and we have access to some of the Asian markets, so I think the number for Canada as a whole will probably be up over 80%, around 85%. It's our major market, and we need access to that market. They're the largest consumer of softwood lumber in the world.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you, Mr. Williams. Time is up.

Next is Mr. Miao for six minutes, please.

Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both our witnesses for joining us virtually today. It is an important study we are doing right now.

The Canada-U.S. softwood lumber dispute has become one of the most enduring trade disputes between both nations. Over the past 25 years, the United States lumber industry has frequently sought U.S. government restriction on Canadian softwood lumber imports through the application of U.S. countervailing duty and anti-dumping laws.

What do you suggest would be helpful for a Canadian official in potential negotiation?

I will start with Mr. Niquidet.

11:20 a.m.

President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Kurt Niquidet

I think the key thing we've been stressing is that this really harms the U.S. consumer. Any of these restrictions are driving up the cost of lumber in the U.S., and they have an affordability challenge, a housing affordability issue, so that's very important.

The other thing is the duties on deposit. Over 10 billion dollars' worth of duties has been collected thus far, and it's sitting on deposit. In the past, in past agreements, we've used those dollars to grow the market. Softwood lumber is a renewable, sustainable product that, if you compare it to other materials, has a lower carbon footprint, so there's an opportunity for both sides to use those funds strategically to grow the overall market.

Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC

On that, what do you believe is the main challenge in resolving this dispute? What do you believe an agreement with the U.S. that will benefit the Canadian softwood lumber industry should look like?

11:20 a.m.

President, British Columbia Lumber Trade Council

Kurt Niquidet

I think the main barrier has been the U.S. industry. They're looking for restrictions on flows to the U.S. to drive up prices, which benefits them. In any sort of agreement, the way U.S. trade law is structured, they need to get buy-in from the U.S. industry for any sort of agreement. I think probably one of the bigger barriers is getting the U.S. industry to come to the table and sign off on any sort of agreement.

I think we have good precedents in the past and some of the past agreements looking for a long-term deal. There are different types of border measures that could be applied. Then, as I mentioned before, the deposits can be used in a strategic manner.

I think a long-term agreement is good, because what we need on both sides of the border is certainty—greater certainty around the softwood lumber trade and the use of duties to grow the market for softwood lumber. That's going to, I think, achieve objectives that both parties are interested in.

Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Laplante, do you have anything to add to this?