International Trade Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Bobiwash.

You're a certified professional accountant. A study on indigenous women's entrepreneurship was carried out by Laval University. This study concluded that the Indian Act makes access to financing or capital more difficult. Several witnesses to whom I put the question during the last few sessions confirmed this.

In particular, we know that section 29 of this act, which concerns property located on a reserve, results in restrictions that prevent the use of such property by entrepreneurs as the collateral needed to access capital. We're also talking about restrictions that concern land titles and transfer of ownership, which would hinder access to property ownership or the operation of a business.

Could you comment on this conclusion?

[Helen Bobiwash]

Absolutely, I do agree. I've seen it myself, because I have worked in the lending business in the past. I've seen where you go to a bank and they can't take security on the first nation. That increases their risk on lending, so they're not going to lend to the organization.

That's why indigenous financial institutions have become an important part of the financing structure within many first nations communities, but it's not only first nations. Off-reserve businesses also have their own challenges, but they pertain less to the Indian Act.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Does the Indian Act have any other impact on entrepreneurship, other than what we've talked about, i.e., the sections on restrictions, among others?

[Helen Bobiwash]

I'm going to say this: Because the Indian Act is colonial legislation, it actually wasn't intended to be a permanent piece of legislation. It was only supposed to be temporary. I think that has long implications for indigenous entrepreneurship and for women in particular.

The Indian Act was very patriarchal, and there were clauses in the Indian Act that showed that indigenous women had a lesser level of status than indigenous men. That still exists, and the fact that we have these experiences.... Particularly for women, we have lower economic status and lower education, and it's all related to the fact of our indigeneity, as well as our gender. It's going to continue to affect us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'm going to Kim Oliver with a question on the challenges you face, particularly representing businesses and knowing, I'm sure, a great deal of entrepreneurs in the north who are suffering unique challenges relative to the geography.

Canada is the second-largest country on the globe. It still surprises me today that we don't have an ability to use the immense wealth we have to create supply chains from the north to other areas, including even just other urban centres in Canada, let alone for international output.

Some of those challenges are unique to the north, in particular the more recent issues relative to climate change.

How has climate change impacted entrepreneurs in your region, and how are they overcoming those barriers?

[Kim Oliver]

I think climate change is impacting everyone. It's not only in the north, but everywhere.

I would also like to make a written submission, if that's okay with you.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Yes, that's perfect. That's fine with me. Thank you so much for being present with us today.

I'll move to Dr. Oyelade. I'd like to ask some questions relative to the training that you're making recommendations for, which could assist in cultural competency; I think that is what you're talking about. It's ensuring that agencies, particularly federal agencies or even private agencies, that are seeking to attempt to work with businesses that you represent...they're going to have challenges relative to cultural sensitivity, cultural understanding and cultural awareness.

Why is it so important to have that kind of training, in particular for government officials, when dealing with supply programs like the women entrepreneurship fund?

[Dr. Olutoyin Oyelade]

As I mentioned earlier, because of the divergence and the diversity that exist—we're diverse people—people definitely learn differently, but the cultural issues bear even more importance in that.

Let me quickly cite an example. If you look at a general regular African woman in business, we're trained not to borrow. That's our background, so when you come into a country that actually thrives on the credit system, that's taboo from where we came from, for me to just quickly allude to that.

We take people out...we are trained that we have to build savings over the years. That's why ROSCAs and schemes like Susu—I'm not sure if you've heard about that—are like co-operatives and so on. That's why this thrives within those systems where you have Asian communities like the Indians and the Africans. I believe that a few cultures that are traditional might understand that.

It's called a “Susu”: If you don't have the money, you go into the community to put it together and borrow from communities. That's why, when you have your own funding, you pull it together and send back. I'm not talking about the large-scale businesses that are into the extractive sector and the medium-sized and very well-established businesses. I'm talking about the small businesses, the medium-scale businesses, because those are actually the ones that constitute the engine of any nation, so if we must build them, we must be mindful of the background.

We don't go out to eat with a credit card because we're going for dinner or buying clothes until.... You are told—lectured—that you need to build a credit history for you to even be able to access the resources and the loans. That's why we now have to retrain ourselves, but then you find that, on average, generally speaking, that is the culture. If you now generalize the training for everyone and say that this is the way you understand it to be and this is how it should be, I am saying, “No. I wasn't raised to be that way. I don't spend money that I don't have.”

Now we've learned to understand how that works and to then maybe pay it back after a while, because otherwise your mum will give you a beating, and you don't want that.

Those are the nuances. We must understand those intersectionalities and wrap them into the policies and so on. That's why it's important to do that.

I hope that answers your question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes. I hope it did, too, because we certainly gave you sufficient time to make sure you made the point. Thank you so much.

Mr. Martel, you have four minutes, please.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll be splitting my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

That is four for you and one for Mr. Baldinelli.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

All right. Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first question is for Ms. Oyelade.

Under the current government, support programs seem to favour symbolic initiatives rather than initiatives that have real effects on the ground.

As a key player in the field of financing, what advice would you give to refocus the government's efforts on pragmatic, economically viable solutions for entrepreneurs?

[Dr. Olutoyin Oyelade]

I think a balance could be struck between both, whether it's symbolic or whether it's targeted. Targeted is important for economic growth, so that's really important.

In my experience, with regard to the resources that are available and that we as groups and community ecosystems have been able to tap into, the ones that I manage, we've seen a lot of resources released and few people. I think it's the information part of it, the availability, the access to some of the resources. Some of the resources are indeed available. The issue is that I am not certain that everyone has access to those resources because of the available information; they may be unaware and so on. That's one part of it.

With regard to targeted resources or targeted support, I think that, for the women entrepreneurship strategy, that has really helped, from my own experience. We are not a beneficiary of such support. However, I do know a few groups that have reached out to us to say that this is available through the women entrepreneurship loan fund. The issue, though, is that we're not able to quantify it. We have the data, or it's readily accessible, for the ones that are in Canada, but globally, with regard to women in trade, I'm not sure that there is ample data for us to measure how well people are doing, so we keep banding the percentages: 16.8% of women in business, 10% are exporting now from Canada. How does that compare to what used to happen before this strategy started? I think those are the balances we need to strike.

The other part of it is that if we're able to measure that effectively, then we'll know where the gaps are coming from, and then we'll know how to deal with those gaps based on the inputs today. The other part is targeted. I'm black or BIPOC, so I know that there are some targeted resources that have been released to that community of BIPOC entrepreneurs. That has really helped, I must say, because before now I never saw those types of targeted resources.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Excuse me for interrupting, Ms. Oyelade, but I have another question for you, and time is running out.

Under the current government, Canada continues to regress in international rankings when it comes to competitiveness and innovation. This affects women's businesses in particular.

In your opinion, how has the government jeopardized the future of women entrepreneurs by not having clear innovation and competitiveness priorities? What immediate changes would you recommend?

[Dr. Olutoyin Oyelade]

I'll draw quick analogies between what we're doing in Canada and maybe what the U.S. and China are doing, for instance. I know for sure that if you do a quick comparative analysis, you can actually easily say that Canada has been a little timid when it comes to how we push women internationally. You could say that, but that's just one part of the fact, because from some of the other information and data that we're beginning to read now, it would appear that some new measures are being taken to push that in the international space.

I know, for instance, that when you look at the Chinese government and the stake it took in building several centres across Africa—because I'm originally from there—from Ghana to Nigeria, you will see that it took a deal called construction for land—rail lines and so on. It took large amounts of land and started building incubators across parts of it. We would have assumed that this would be a step that should be taken, but Canada is a little conservative. That needs to change.

However, we might ride on top of the current structure, because there's already a structure. There are already policies and strategies in place that we can build upon and use to go into those areas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much. You have used Mr. Martel's time, but I'm going to give Mr. Baldinelli that one minute he was asking for.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Oyelade, for your time.

I'm going to build on what my colleague talked about. You spoke about tailored programs addressing some of the key cultural differences that exist among women entrepreneur groups. As a board member who serves in both Africa and North America, what key differences do you see in supporting women in international trade between these regions? Are there key...or are there best practices that we could adopt from other regions to apply here?

[Dr. Olutoyin Oyelade]

Absolutely. If you look at the way some of the corporations are structured, there are a few things. I think it's about the flexibility of ideas and generating innovative ideas on platforms where you can easily, readily submit your papers—like we're being allowed to do today, but not at government level. This would be at the organized, private sector and non-profit levels, because people have access to those platforms. We need to be more open-minded about how we allow the contribution of ideas, concepts and so on. We need to allow people to build on top of that, whether it's at the organized, private sector level or the corporate level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Again, when you submit some of your thoughts in writing, you might want to cover that one as well.

Ms. Fortier, you have five minutes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, again, to all of you for being here today.

Ms. Oyelade, I'm hearing you on measuring and data. I understand the general thought of going through with measurements, but do you have specific measures that you think we should take into account and move forward with?

[Dr. Olutoyin Oyelade]

Thank you again, honourable member.

I would take a careful look again at the BWIT. That's the business women in international trade program. I don't have the full details of that program. However, I understand it has been in existence for a while. It works. It's tailored to work under the trade commissioner service in the regions. The main purpose is pulling together events and making sure to connect groups both regionally and with indigenous businesses at those locations.

As a business person, I'm thinking a lot about how the people who really want to do business internationally might already have an idea of what they're looking to do. The primary expectation might not be getting connected with businesses on the ground. It might actually be having somebody hold their hand and support them with some funding or capital to make sure they get an inroad. Open doors and make sure you connect us, instead of organizing events and so on. We are thinking that, aside from the trade commissioner service, those BWIT teams could be given the responsibility of having specific targets for helping, not just to connect us or hold events but also to create some capital for people to go in, because it's a fund. I think the fund has to do with the people themselves on the ground, organizing.

It's about measuring and making sure they get details and more data. “How many businesses have we supported? How many of them were actually able to get into a partnership?” This becomes an indicator that could be measured over time. Then we can get more data.

They could take that up, because, as the name depicts, they're supposed to be supporting businesswomen in trade. I'm not sure if that has been done. That's what I meant.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for that.

I have a question for all witnesses. What do you think of the tool of trade missions? I know our government has done many trade missions. I'm wondering if that would entice women to participate more on the global scale. First of all, are trade missions a good tool? Second, if so, how do we entice women to participate in the trade missions that are made available?

I'll start with Helen Bobiwash online.

[Helen Bobiwash]

Thank you.

I agree that trade missions are a good tool to use. I would like to see women-specific trade missions, and indigenous women-specific trade missions.

I know that one of the criteria for trade missions is that you have to show you have something that can actually be exported. I'll use my business as an example. It's a knowledge-based business. I can provide my accounting services anywhere around the world. I would love the opportunity to do indigenous-to-indigenous trade in order to share my knowledge, but I have to prove that I'm ready. Mine is a little simpler. I just have to go there and talk to people. The requirement of proving the level of capacity you're already at is a barrier. I understand why. You want to be good domestically before you export.

I think that having these exploratory missions, where people can see this conceptually—“Oh, this is actually an opportunity I can pursue”—would be helpful.