International Trade Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)), Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm calling the meeting to order. This is meeting 128 of the Standing Committee on International Trade. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 16, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of Canadian women and international trade.

We have with us today, from the Casa Foundation for International Development, Dr. Oyelade, president. From District Ventures Capital, by video conference, we have Arlene Dickinson, founder and general partner. From Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada we have Kim Oliver, policy analyst, social and economic development, by video conference. As an individual, we have Helen Bobiwash, chartered professional accountant. Welcome to you all. Thank you very much for taking time out of your busy days to be with us today.

I need to note that Ms. Dickinson has let us know that she is here from 11 to 12. I'm sure many members are anxious to connect with Ms. Dickinson. The remaining witnesses will be here for the full two hours, so we have the one panel for the full two-hour program this afternoon. We will start with opening remarks and then proceed with rounds of questions. Each member has up to five minutes.

I will introduce Dr. Oyelade and I invite you to take the floor for up to five minutes, please. When you notice that I'm raising my hand, it will be an indication that the five minutes is just about up. Thank you very much for being here. I'll turn the floor over to you.

[Dr. Olutoyin Oyelade, President, Casa Foundation For International Development]

Good morning, Madam Chair and honourable members of the standing committee.

My name is Olutoyin Oyelade. I'm the president of the Casa Foundation. It's indeed a real privilege and rare honour to present to your esteemed committee this morning my ideas on the women entrepreneurship strategy and how that supports women in trade.

The WES is not just a policy framework but also a road map that has unlocked the potential of women entrepreneurs to shape the future of the Canadian economy. Moreover, the business women in international trade initiative—launched much earlier and now managed under the women entrepreneurship strategy—aims to boost women's participation in international trade.

Although available data from ISED and Statistics Canada indicates a huge growth in the percentage of women in trade generally speaking, the question then is this: How well have women in trade really fared when you talk about their contributions to the GDP of Canada?

Available data from ISED and also from the website for business women in international trade indicates that, between 2021 and 2022, few women played in the international markets when compared to 12.5% participation by their male counterparts in the international markets.

Few women have access to the needed resources. This is general information, and it is available generally. However, the question to keep asking ourselves is this: How is this measured, and how are the indicators put together to factor in mutual benefits? What is beneficial to the country called Canada on one hand, and what are the indicated measures that are put in place to make sure that women actually spearhead their own destiny, their own journey, in the international markets? Women do have dreams and choices. However, half of the time what we hear is the fact that we need to set up quota systems and make sure that we allocate this to women. It is important to do so, but there are other ways to look at it. I'll be talking about that, perhaps, during the question and answer session—situations where you put resources in place to have ecosystems and platforms where women can excel and have direct access to the resources they need. This is because information is not as readily available as we might assume.

I am Nigerian African, and there are the cultural paths of women's entrepreneurship in trade globally. There is the culturally informed education that needs to be adopted or factored into the current strategy to make sure women are also able to do what they need to do in terms of managing and leveraging the resources from the diaspora. They have their connections before they ever come into a new country; they must be able to leverage that through partnerships and education that is culturally delivered. These are some of the things I aim to talk about today.

The broader impact that we're looking at is having a women endowment fund, for instance, so that even after all of the funds have been disposed to them in bits of 90 days, two years, three years.... What's next after $5,000? What's next after $50,000 to help them to scale, to help them to expand and to help them to connect with clients across the globe? I think that a women endowment fund might actually be able to do that for us, and I hope I get to speak about that again later today.

There is the venture labs part of it also that I think we should be talking about. For instance, the Casa Foundation put together programs whereby $5,000 was disbursed to women every 90 days after completing a 10-week program, because we got the needed support from some financial institutions. It was $5,000 to $10,000.

They're looking to grow into the international market, and the question they keep asking us is this: After the initial $5,000 to $10,000, how do they access this? I see a lot of concerted effort in a lot of the women who are already in business, because they're big and medium-sized businesses, but a lot of people are not focusing on the lower rungs of the ladder, and these are the people who can actually generate for us the needed resources.

Again, I'll allude to Africa. We're told that there's a potential opportunity for $6.6 billion in revenues to be generated by doing business in Canada-Africa relations. How do we bring women in to take a portion of that and make sure they're able to dovetail into the Canadian economy? That's the way I think women can contribute to the national economy of Canada.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much. It's much appreciated.

Ms. Dickinson, please go ahead for up to five minutes.

[Arlene Dickinson, Founder and General Partner, District Ventures Capital]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the honourable members of the standing committee for letting me make some comments today.

I take the subject of entrepreneurialism and entrepreneurship in Canada extremely seriously, especially the cause of helping them continue to grow.

Today I'd like to address and focus on three points. The first is that the existence of the women's entrepreneurship strategy is a good thing, but it can be improved. The second is that getting to the point of export requires growth and scale, and this part of the entrepreneurial journey warrants more government attention. The final thing is that, given U.S. protectionism, Canada must review the fundamentals of our business environment. Decisions that promote investment and entrepreneurship must be prioritized.

I will focus on the women entrepreneurship strategy. In 2014 I submitted a report to the government about women entrepreneurship. I thought then, as I think today, that in a perfect world there wouldn't need to be a women entrepreneurship strategy, but it responds to our real bias in private and public sector investment, and my hope is that over time this bias will be reduced.

That experience spurred me to establish District Ventures Capital as well as the Venturepark business growth ecosystem, both of which support entrepreneurs in the food and health industries. The ecosystem has driven close to $2 billion in economic impact since its inception eight years ago. That support tackles two persistent Canadian policy problems: our propensity to send our raw agricultural goods overseas, where value is added and jobs are created elsewhere; and the historic lack of support for women in entrepreneurship that comes in investor financing and social bias, all of which block women and often discourage or dissuade them from starting a business venture.

The government has supported District Ventures Capital through SCC, BDC and EDC. They are part of our capital fund. The government has helped to evolve the support system for CPG entrepreneurs in Canada, and that's a good thing.

A small criticism here is that those programs are uncoordinated. This also seems to be the case with the women's entrepreneurship strategy. Entrepreneurs are grateful but frustrated at having to look under a lot of different rocks for funding and not meeting criteria designed to create roadblocks to ways forward. Too many restrictions on too much funding means the majority of capital is being deployed into very tight sector circles. What would get better results is looking beyond the tech and energy sectors and supporting the health and food industries more. These are industries predominantly led by women entrepreneurs.

A big issue stems from the lack of investment support in total for women entrepreneurs. Only 4% of all VC funding goes to women founders, who represent 50% of the population. We need to change that, not just for the sake of equality but to ensure larger social goals. Female-founded businesses tend to be more sustainable, and they tend to address skill gaps more consistently. Many private sector funds also include public capital. These are partnerships where the government could enable change efficiently and under merit-based rules. There remains a lack of accountability in government programs to ensure enough funding is deployed to worthy females and women-led businesses.

There is also a difference between starting a business and scaling a business. Governments often support early-stage entrepreneurs, but funding for growth and acceleration remains a challenge. Canadian entrepreneurs do not expand internationally if they have not achieved scale in Canada. Larger sources of capital are instrumental if the entrepreneur is seeking to thrive in export markets. Growth capital can't just be public funds. At best, it is a private sector investment. We need to do more to spur that private sector investment in scaling high-growth businesses.

Finally, on American protectionism and Canadian growth, my last point surrounds the deepening American protectionism that will affect Canadian entrepreneurs. As a country, we do not have the might to match beautiful tariff for beautiful tariff, nor would that be a smart approach.

We need to double down on growth at home, and we need to see women entrepreneurs as critical to that growth. That growth will happen only through high-growth entrepreneurship.

We need to declare support for entrepreneurship and then make changes to show it. That could involve things such as less red tape, fewer costs for starting a business, low or no tax on first revenue in a new business up to a certain amount, tax credits on investments in first-time entrepreneurs, reduced provincial trade barriers and revisiting changes to the capital gains tax.

This committee should also consider policy changes that would bring more women into entrepreneurship. My suggestion there is a more generous tax benefit for private sector investment in first-time women entrepreneurs and the businesses that support them. If the whole ecosystem can be rewarded for the right behaviour, we'll be that much further along. These ideas would send a clear message that Canada supports entrepreneurship and that Canada supports women in entrepreneurship.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Ms. Dickinson.

It's on to Ms. Oliver for up to five minutes, please.

[Kim Oliver, Policy Analyst, Social and Economic Development, Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada]

Good morning, Madam Chair and committee members. Thank you.

My name is Kim Oliver, and I'm a policy analyst, social and economic development, with Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada.

I very recently started my position with Pauktuutit, so forgive me in advance if I do not have some answers to the committee's questions. I will endeavour to provide a follow-up written submission if needed.

While the committee study aims to examine gaps and opportunities, it must address systematic, historical, long-lasting structural inequalities. Inuit in Canada experience lower economic participation levels in the labour market than the national average. Inuit women in particular face numerous challenges and barriers in starting and maintaining businesses. Inuit of all genders own only 0.02% of businesses in Canada, from a sample composition from 2005 to 2018, according to a recently released Statistics Canada report on survival rates and performance of indigenous-owned businesses

In 2021, Pauktuutit conducted a study on Inuit women-owned businesses. They are engaged in a wide variety of businesses in artistry, retail, hospitality and the mining sector. Most businesses are small and are important contributors to the household income. Cultural values are at the core of success.

One of the most pressing barriers is the infrastructure deficit in communities, such as access to affordable housing. Housing is a critical challenge and is deeply tied to employment and economic independence. In many cases, housing is provided by employers as the cost is significant to privately own and run a home with heating, fuel and electricity. Access to market rentals is limited. For example, in Iqaluit there is a 0.01% vacancy rate in available rentals. In addition, not all these spaces allow for home-based businesses, and simply accessing stand-alone space is not a viable option in Inuit Nunangat.

The income thresholds in social housing are complex. The more one earns, the less housing support there is, yet the higher earnings are rarely sufficient to afford private-market housing. We face overcrowded and multi-generational housing conditions, which impacts our ability to launch or grow a business.

There's a lack of fibre-optic cable Internet connectivity. It is essential for business development, e-commerce and professional training to enable connection with markets beyond borders.

Geography further complicates these issues. Leaving our community to pursue opportunities disrupts family and community.

Another hurdle is the struggle to secure the financing needed to start a business. Systematic discrimination in financial systems coupled with limited financial resources designed for Inuit realities compounds this issue. Without capital, even the most innovative ideas remain unrealized.

Support and resources, in addition to government programs, are not easily accessible or well known. At Pauktuutit, we are committed to initiatives that meaningfully support leadership development. However, systematic support is necessary to enable success and fully realize one's potential. The Government of Canada plays an important role. Housing deficits must be closed. Investments in broadband infrastructure are essential to connect with broader markets.

The government must consider shipping rates in the postal service so that large vendors are compelled to provide better access to free or flat-rate shipping equal to other parts of Canada. Postal rates must be tailored with rates that significantly subsidize remote realities. Communities and businesses are heavily reliant on these services, with no other options.

Air cargo and waterway shipping options are limited, and air tariffs are determined by each carrier or at the industry level. While Inuit-owned airlines make efforts to provide subsidies for Inuit, there appears to be little government support. Shipping by waterway can be costly and is not economical for smaller entities. It is essential that the government invest in roads connecting to larger centres to allow for freedom of imports and exports at lower cost. It must invest in reliable energy to move away from the high cost of diesel generation and the bulk purchase of fuel shipped annually and stored in aging fuel tanks.

Finally, invest in targeted funding streams that provide start-up capital and business support tailored to Inuit realities. Financial and capability constraints are the key barriers to the economic participation and development of the indigenous-owned enterprises.

Honourable committee members, Inuit women entrepreneurs represent an untapped well of talent and potential. Our success is not just about individual achievement. It has the power to transform families, communities and economies. Pauktuutit is ready to work hand in hand with the Government of Canada to ensure that this vision becomes a reality.

Qujannamiik. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Bobiwash, you have up to five minutes, please.

[Helen Bobiwash, Chartered Professional Accountant, As an Individual]

Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts with you today.

My name is Helen Bobiwash. My spirit name is She Who Mends Broken Paths. I am an Anishinabe kwe, a member of the Thessalon First Nation. I am an FCPA, an entrepreneur who has operated my own independent accounting service for almost 25 years, and a member of the investment committee of the Indigenous Growth Fund. I join you today from N'Swakamok, the city of Greater Sudbury, situated in the Robinson-Huron Treaty territory.

Women face barriers to entrepreneurship. Indigenous entrepreneurs also face barriers. When the two demographics intersect, the barriers are exponential for indigenous women entrepreneurs. I'm going to share two barriers with you this morning.

First, indigenous women are the caregivers in our communities, and this competes with our entrepreneurial activity for our time and attention. Caregiving is a sacred responsibility that aided the survival of our people. We give birth to and raise children, and we care not only for those we give birth to but others in need of care, including aging family members. As much as we lovingly take on this role, caregiving competes with our entrepreneurial activities for our time and attention. I often travel to meet with clients. When my son was born, he and a sitter travelled with me. When he reached school age, I limited my travel to keep my son in school and be available for him. This limited my earning potential. It is an ongoing balancing act to take care of our family and business responsibilities, and it causes stress. Services provided to indigenous women entrepreneurs must accommodate our family status.

Second, there are barriers associated with the scale of businesses started by indigenous women. Many start small, even micro, businesses. We tend to start part-time or home-based businesses. This allows us to start our business with available financial resources and to be available for our family and community responsibilities. The micro nature of indigenous women-owned businesses limits our access to financing, because conventional financing policies exclude part-time or home-based businesses.

The WES ecosystem fund provided funding to the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association, or NACCA, for an indigenous women entrepreneurship program. It provided options for indigenous women to access micro loans, training and business supports. Access to these supports must continue.

Next, I offer two recommendations to further support indigenous women entrepreneurs.

My first recommendation is to provide trauma-informed services. Indigenous women experience trauma that has detrimental implications for them, their families and communities, and their business operations. Statistics Canada reported that almost two-thirds of indigenous women experience physical and sexual assault by intimate and non-intimate partners. This is almost two times higher than for non-indigenous women. I myself have experienced violence. We also continue to be impacted by intergenerational trauma from harms experienced in colonial institutions, and we are profoundly aware of our safety in public due to the thousands of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls across Canada. It is important for providers of entrepreneurship services to take trauma-informed training and provide services in a manner that demonstrates that indigenous women will be safe.

My second recommendation is to provide financial capability training for indigenous women entrepreneurs. In 2020, I conducted research for NACCA on indigenous women entrepreneurs. When we asked indigenous women what knowledge supports they needed, the top subjects were financial, such as financing a business, bookkeeping, and payroll obligations.

Each of us develops our financial capability from childhood, observing how those around us deal with money. Many indigenous people don't have role models to show us how to manage our finances. Access to financial services is limited in indigenous communities, so this is not a part of life that many indigenous people can observe. The financial knowledge gap is great among indigenous entrepreneurs and even greater among indigenous women entrepreneurs. Additional financial capability training will transmit essential knowledge and increase the efficacy of indigenous women entrepreneurs.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses.

We're moving on to Ms. Gray for six minutes, please.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for being here.

First, to Ms. Dickinson, I just wanted to say that as an entrepreneur, when you came out with your book, Persuasion, it was very relevant to me at the time. Also, I remember many years ago seeing you speak as the keynote speaker at an agri-food convention in downtown Calgary, and I wanted to thank you for your strong advocacy to protect against food insecurity. Thank you.

My questions are for Arlene Dickinson.

The Liberal government, in budget 2024, stated, “Increasing the capital gains inclusion rate is not expected to hurt Canada's business competitiveness.”

Do you believe that statement?

[Arlene Dickinson]

Thank you for the kind words, first of all. I appreciate that.

I don't believe that statement. I believe it actually will impact significantly the amount of investment being made by private investors back into our economy. The taxation is getting to the point where it's not viable.

What's missing in the entire plan is the notion that when we start a business, we're not making money at the beginning. Anyone who's an entrepreneur understands that you're putting years and years in where you're giving into the business and you're not taking anything out of the business, with the hope that reward will happen five, 10 or 20 years from the time you start. That investment is onerous. It's very difficult to get through.

You've just heard from the other panellists that this is a difficult journey, and to penalize that reward at the end.... If you spread it out over the 20 years it might take to get that reward, the number of dollars you're actually bringing in to yourself is probably much less than you would make if you had a full-time job. That is true just for the majority of entrepreneurs who sell their businesses, if they can sell their businesses, so it is punitive. I don't believe it's helpful. I think it's actually very punitive to our ecosystem of investment in Canada.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

This study is focused on women entrepreneurs and trade. Many businesses start small, and then they look to expand and grow.

Based on your extensive experience as an entrepreneur and as a venture capitalist, will Canada be less competitive for talent, investment or capital in the global market because of this Liberal capital gains tax hike?

[Arlene Dickinson]

Yes, we're going to lose entrepreneurs to other nations; they are going to go to more tax-friendly environments. We are going to not be as competitive, because we won't have the same amount of capital being put back into entrepreneurs. In particular, if you think about the fact that there is no tax benefit to investing your private capital into helping other businesses get started, and, in fact, you're then penalized later on, there are just so many negative connotations to this.

I don't believe.... Also, thinking about taxation as an ongoing issue, people saying, “Well, it's the rich people not wanting to get taxed more” is a narrative that's very unfair and not true. It's not about paying taxes; it's about how we're paying taxes and where we're paying taxes and whether or not that's actually encouraging investment.

If we want to be competitive around the globe, we have to think about the tax regimes that exist in our largest competitive nations and our trading partners and determine how we can sustain our nation, which requires taxation, of course, while at the same time being competitive.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Do you believe that productivity and innovation are down in Canada?

[Arlene Dickinson]

Yes, they are both down. The stats will tell you they're down, but I can tell you, just in terms of my understanding of the business community in this nation and speaking to many other entrepreneurs and many other successful large businesses, that the innovation dollars and the R and D dollars are going down. When the innovation does happen in Canada, we are actually selling our IP to other nations. We're not commercializing here, so yes, there's no doubt that productivity and innovation are down in our nation.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

We've heard testimony from others at this committee and we've seen other reports where, specifically on the innovation side, many of those who work in the innovation economy believe that the Liberals' capital gains tax hike will have a very negative effect on the innovation economy specifically.

Again, based on your extensive experience as an entrepreneur and venture capitalist, do you believe it when the Liberal government says it's not going to affect innovation in Canada, or do you believe the entrepreneurs who are saying that, in fact, the capital gains tax hike will have an effect?

[Arlene Dickinson]

I believe the entrepreneurs. I believe it, not because they're saying it but because we're all living it. There's a big difference between rhetoric saying that things are bad and it's the government's fault and it's the taxation issues, and it being an actual fact that it is happening, and we're witnessing it happen in real time.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

You wrote an article in The Globe and Mail in June, entitled “Stop it with the class-war rhetoric to sell a capital-gains tax hike”. It was about the Liberals' capital gains tax increases. You said of the Liberal capital gains tax hike, “The government has, fundamentally, through one ill-conceived motion, declared war not just on entrepreneurs but on our futures—mine, yours and the next generation’s.”

Those are very impactful words. In my last 20 seconds here, I'm wondering if you could comment on them for a moment.

[Arlene Dickinson]

I stand by them. They're straight and they're clear and they're direct for a reason. We have to stand up for what we believe will help our nation continue to be competitive and help our entrepreneurs succeed so that our economy can grow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sidhu, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to our esteemed witnesses for joining us today on this very important study.

Ms. Oyelade, you mentioned the importance of leveraging diaspora networks to grow business and maybe, of course, grow trade. I absolutely agree. Earlier this month, at the African Union high-level dialogue, I joined the Prime Minister, Minister Ng and colleagues to lead a conversation with local leaders, who repeatedly mentioned exactly what you have said about the vital links between diaspora communities and the role they can play to strengthen our business relationships.

Can you perhaps speak to how we can build on these important links within the African Canadian diaspora of over 1.2 million, and how women-led businesses can leverage this important link to grow their business and trade?

[Dr. Olutoyin Oyelade]

Absolutely. As African diasporan women, first, we know, of course, that there are limitations, with family issues and so on, for women in trade. However, because they also have connections in not only the diasporan community but also their home country as immigrants, they are able to easily connect with the groups back in their home countries to facilitate that, just as every woman can. The cultural part of it is actually what comes to play here. It's a cultural thing for Africans generally that people have a responsibility to send funds back home. Wherever you are, you must pull funds together and send them back to your community to make sure that businesses are initiated. That's a cultural thing. I'm not sure about other cultures.

A country like Canada could leverage that. Instead of just sending a pool of funds left, right and centre, with no formalized structure where you can actually capture the amount of funds being shipped out of our country on a daily basis, we could actually turn this into a pool of funds, maybe matched by the government. We could formalize and put some specific governance structure around monies being shipped out for business purposes.

That's how people initiate their trading activities. You find a partner, whether it be from your homeland or your community or people you did business with before in your profession. Keep in mind that a lot of professional people are here. They did business before coming into Canada. Those types of communities are the ones that I believe we can leverage extensively.

I can cite a quick example from an architectural firm. My husband is an architect, for instance. He trained 30 years before coming to Canada. He had his own firm. He traded for a solid 30 years. He came into Canada, tried to do business and get his certification and all of those things, but remember, he had connections back home in building homes and designing buildings. He certifies homes. He continues to do business, although he's here. Because this is a design job, he gets to do that, but it's across continents. He continues to do that. They are able to earn some fees to send to him to keep up. That's business for us. Whatever funds they make, they bring into Canada. I reckon that there's a host of several other businesses in similar activities.

We talk about 1.2 million people in Canada. I'm an investment banker myself, so I understand exactly the nuances of venture capital and so on. That's exactly how we raised our first funding for the entrepreneurship hub we started before we got our later funding. All of this can be replicated in different parts of Africa.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

I understand. I'm a big believer in leveraging diaspora. I was able to do that prior to politics, building my own business in international trade. It's important that we learn from these important examples you gave.

I'm going to turn now to Ms. Dickinson.

Ms. Dickinson, in budget 2024, our government announced a $2.4-billion investment to support artificial intelligence through research, but also assistance to help businesses develop and adapt AI responsibly.

Of course, AI will play a vital role in boosting productivity and perhaps even international trade. Just a few days ago, the World Trade Organization released a new report on how artificial intelligence may help shape the future of international trade. The report highlights how AI can help reduce trade costs and support small and mid-sized businesses to access new markets.

Now, Ms. Dickinson, with your wealth of knowledge, what would you currently make of AI and the impact it can have on women entrepreneurs and perhaps even trade?

[Arlene Dickinson]

AI is one of those things that is going to be good only if it's applied properly and in the context of the sector it's being applied to.

When you think about AI, it's not this kind of big, meaty thing. Well, it's big and meaty in many ways, but we need to bring it down to where it can help us in the sectors that we're very good at.

If we think about agriculture, technology and the energy sectors in general in terms of productivity, the things that we employ the most people in, if we apply AI in the context of those sectors, we will get the most from them. I can speak in an informed way only about agriculture and the need to use AI in terms of helping women entrepreneurs in that space. There's a huge opportunity to take AI and help women entrepreneurs to be better equipped to grow their businesses, because they can access tools that they can't get today.

AI as an enabler is a very good thing. AI as some technology tool that's out there that you don't know how to apply properly is just another technology tool that's out there that you don't know how to apply properly. It needs to be very much applied to the sector that it's going to support. When that happens, then you will be able to cook with fire, as they say, because you're going to have good technology applied to a need that you have in a specific sector to help it grow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Monsieur Savard-Tremblay for six minutes, please.